Lead with a Story with Paul Smith
Paul Smith is one of the world’s leading experts in business storytelling. He’s one of Inc. Magazine’s Top 100 Leadership Speakers of 2018, a storytelling coach, and bestselling author of several books including The 10 Stories Great Leaders Tell, Sell with a Story, Lead with a Story, Parenting with a Story. Paul holds an MBA from the Wharton School, is a former consultant at Accenture, and former executive and 20-year veteran of The Procter & Gamble Company.
Inside This Episode
- Why Storytelling Works
- Why Emotions Drive Good Decision-Making
- How to use stories every day
- What’s Your Company Story?
- An Example of a Founding Story
- Top 10 Stories Leaders Must Tell
- How Stories Create Culture
- Common Storytelling Mistakes
- How to Start a Story So People Listen
- Why Telling Stories Is Better Than Giving Advice
- Keep It Short & Sweet
- Using Questions to Customize and Create Stories
- If Not Now, When?
Links:
Website: www.leadwithastory.com
LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/smithpa9/
Twitter: @LeadWithAStory
John Ryan
You're listening to key conversations for leaders. This is episode number 15. Welcome everybody. In today's episode, we're gonna be discussing how to lead with a story with Paul Smith. We have a ton of great content. Today we'll be covering top 10 stories, leaders must tell common storytelling mistakes. Why telling stories is much better than giving advice and much, much more.
In times of great change, we need great leaders, those willing to step up to take responsibility to create a vision and inspire others to join them in fulfilling that vision. A key part of that is having conversations with yourself and those who lead. That's what this show is about better conversations for better leaders. Hey, everybody, and welcome to key conversations for leaders. I'm your host John Ryan, and today we have a very special guest, Paul Smith. Paul is one of the world's leading experts in business storytelling. He's one of Inc. magazine's top 100 leadership speakers of 2018, a storytelling coach and a best selling author of several books, including the 10 stories great leaders tell sell with a story lead with a story and parenting with a story. Paul holds an MBA from the Wharton School as a former consultant at Accenture and a former executive and 20 year veteran of the Procter and Gamble company. Welcome to the show, Paul. Hey, john,
Paul Smith
Thanks for having me on. I'm excited to be here.
John Ryan
Paul, I wanted to start off by asking because you're clearly a master at storytelling. You know, why is it that you think storytelling works so well as a leadership tool?
Paul Smith
Yeah, you know, there's I'm sure there dozens of reasons, but probably the most important one is that, it turns out that we humans don't make the logical, rational decisions that we'd like to think we do. Right. There's been a lot of cognitive science, you know, in the last couple of decades behind this, but it turns out many if not most, Decisions are made subconsciously, in an emotional processing part of the brain, and then justified logically and rationally, if you nanoseconds later, in a more conscious, logical thinking part of the brain so so we leave our decision making processes, thinking that we've made them for all those rational, logical reasons. But the truth is our subconscious brain kind of, you know, made the decision on a more, you know, primitive emotional level for us. And the rest of our brain is just trying to catch up. And so, it turns out that if you want to influence what people think and feel and do, you know, in other words, leadership or sales or marketing or influence in general, you need to talk to both parts of the brain. And storytelling is just uniquely well qualified to reach both parts instead of only that logical, rational thinking part that our normal conversation appeals to.
John Ryan
I think it's a really great way to say it, because I think what I've heard said before, like I said, people make decisions emotionally, but then they look back after the fact, and they try to justify them logically. So as a storyteller, you're really communicating to their subconscious mind and priming them, influencing them connecting to their drives and values and influencing them on sounds like the deepest level, would you say?
Paul Smith
Yes. And there are lots of other reasons as well. I mean, it stories are more memorable, and they create a context and put your idea into a real concrete context as well. So there are other reasons. But the the decision making process of humans, I think, is probably one of the most compelling ones to use stories.
John Ryan
Now, as human beings, we tend we think that we're logical and rational and we want the data. Is that really necessary or do you do that only to satisfy the conscious mind?
Paul Smith
So I think both are necessary and I think certainly in business, most of the decisions should have some quantitative You know, logical, rational reason behind them. But the people making those decisions are humans, not computers, right? So, and humans, humans need some emotional content in order to make good decisions. So sharing stories that help people help connect with their subconscious emotional mind isn't just some trick that you're playing. It's, it's a necessary part of human cognition. In fact, we have a word for people who fail to properly consider the emotional impact of their decisions. Did you know what that word is? No.
John Ryan
Sociopath?
Paul Smith
That's not a joke. I mean, literally, yeah, sociopaths are people who have no emotional, you know, cognition of the impact and the consequences of their behavior. That's why they can just kill people and not care about it because they just they don't care. They don't have any emotional processing. So emotional processing is a necessary and legitimate part of human cognition. mission and if you, if you're not sharing stories, you're depriving your audience of the ability for that part of their brain to do what it's supposed to do.
John Ryan
Well, speaking of which, I know I'd read in I think was Psychology Today that said that CEOs who actually have the highest percentage from a professional perspective of people who are in that sociopath, psychopath, whatever that is, who have a hard time dealing with emotions. So does this storytelling tool still work in terms of managing up and influencing people who have that deficit? if you will?
Paul Smith
Yeah. So So fortunately, I bet if you look up the statistics, you'll find that Sophia sociopaths are like, two or 3% of the population and among the CEO ranks, maybe they're four or five or 6%. Sure, good news is 95% of us are still normal human beings and this stuff will work. So is it possible that there's a tiny percentage of people who stories don't work on Yes, but you should just avoid those people in general. Anyway.
John Ryan
I love that. I think you're right. It was like four or 5%. It wasn't like 50%. So that's something majority of people were dealing with. And in, in your research, you actually interviewed hundreds of CEOs in order to really reverse engineer what works and storytelling and also what doesn't. Was there anything that you learned in the process that really surprised you?
Paul Smith
Yeah, well, several things. The first thing that comes to mind is the sheer diversity of situations where leaders find themselves in where they could and should be telling a story. I mean, I went into the, you know, the original research for my first book, which is eight years ago, thinking, you know, there's a limited number of places or times in a leaders day where they would need to tell a story, you know, what, probably when they need to set a vision or when they're trying to lead change or something, you know, I already thought of a few situations, but I just I found an enormous number of situations where leaders could and should be telling stories, you know, helping, helping their their peers find passion for their work, or their subordinates find passion for their work, teaching people to be better problem solvers, helping people be more creative and innovative in their jobs, getting people to accept feedback as a gift, as opposed to as you know, some kind of punishment. You know, I mean, it just so many, you know, and I tried, I tried documenting them in my first book, and I think I got to, like 2021 or 22 different leadership challenges where leaders should be telling stories, my publisher was just like, dude, stop, like, save the rest for books number two, three, or four or something, but that's just that's way plenty for one book and and and my fifth book just came out. And so I'm just continuing to find more more uses for storytelling than I ever thought I would find.
John Ryan
Well, congratulations on the upcoming fifth book. And you really I can tell you found that storytelling is such a universal tool. They can be used in a variety of contexts. And one of the ways you do that is helping not only individuals, but companies identify, you know, what is their company's story? Can you talk a little bit about you know what that means?
Paul Smith
Yeah. So So first of all, a clarification is that's a very common question I get. And most people ask that question, because they assume that that all companies have a story. Or every you know, brand has a story. And I think that's rather limiting, like, companies should have lots of stories. Like you shouldn't just have one story. I mean, that would be it's like saying, well, John Ryan, What's your story? What on earth? Do you mean by want to know where I was born? Like, or do you want to know where I went to college? Or do you want to know what I did yesterday, like? companies, businesses, organizations, brands have dozens of stories. So when you ask about a company story, you have to specify what do you mean by that? And a lot of times what they mean is their founding story, right? The story of when the company got founded, and that is a very, very important story for all companies to be able Tell. But it's only one so. So now that I've clarified that, let me have you remind me what what the original question.
John Ryan
So yeah, tell us more I was looking for more like what is it an example of a company story and it sounds like the founding story is one of them. Yeah. What are some other examples? Yeah.
Paul Smith
Yeah. So Well, well, let me start by giving an example of a founding story so you can see what that kind of looks like. So one of my favorite is about a guy named Eric. And he he was a bike rider, a cyclist I got a really serious we're not professional, but he's the kind of guy that would go out and ride 100 miles on the weekend, right? I you know, I ride 20 miles and I'm ready, you know, call it a day. So he was and this is back in the 80s and he was out biking with a friend of his on one of these, you know, hundred and 50 mile tracks. And he's in San California and they're, they make it to the top of this hill they're about 100 miles into this hundred and 50 mile bike ride. And they've been bringing those cereal bars or power bar you know, bars with them, that you have to eat, you know, because if you ride that far You burn through a lot of calories and you get to eat fairly often. And he pulls out, you know, what would what would have been like number five of six, you know, cereal bars that he was gonna have to eat that day right on this bike ride. And he just looks at it disgusted. Like, there is no way I'm going to put another one of these in my mouth. Like, they're just, you know, they're all the same. They're sticky. They're hard. They're, you know, they're kind of gross. They sit in your stomach, like a rock and I'm just, I just, I cannot eat one more of these. But, you know, I got 50 miles more to ride, I'm famished. And so he just says, I'm not gonna eat it. He puts it back in his pocket and they start riding down the hill for the last 50 miles. And, and as he's going down this hill with his buddy, he says, You know what, there is just no reason why we have to eat this junk, right? Like he said, and he owned a bakery, by the way, he said, I can make a better cereal bar a better, you know, energy bar than this or I bet I can, you know, and by the end of that ride, he convinced himself to make one so he goes His home and he actually has his he calls his mom because his mom taught him how to bake to begin with. And he literally goes over to mom's kitchen and they start throwing some things together and trying different ingredients. And over the course of the next six months, he comes up with what he thinks is a much better, you know, energy bar for cyclists and runners and people like that then this one that everybody been eating, and he ends up launching it and it's a huge success and but as he's launching it, he has to decide what to name it. And he'd already named his bakery after his mom and his grandmother, so he decided to name the cereal bar after his dad, his dad's name was Clifford. And that's how the Clif Bar was born. So that's the founding story of the Clif Bar company. Right? It's because Eric was out on a bike ride and was disgusted at the power bar that he had in the fifth power bar he had he and so you know, stories like that the the founding story of a company isn't something like this. Well, you know, we started 20 years ago with two employees in the garage and $500 and today, we're fortunate 500 company and in six countries around the world and, you know, that's not a founding story. That's a summary of 20 years of your business. Right? The founding story is a story about that one moment, that the, the idea for the company, hit somebody, you know, because nobody ever, ever quit their job, risked everything to start a new business for a boring reason, right? There's always an exciting reason behind it. So the founding story is just that little first part of the company's beginning, the founding of the company. So that's a founding story.
John Ryan
Thank you so much for that's a great example. And it's one obviously we all know, and my son loves the Z bars, which is the new kid version, which is amazing. And they've done huge, obviously huge problem was recognized, you know, next to power bar and things like that out there. And it came from that that story. So rather than the 20 years of data, which you could allude to, you're going to remember that story, the bike ride Looking for how do I make something better than already exists? So is for me what I when I get onto that is like hey look for need and what could I do that I'd be interested in to change my life and those of others? What is it that you feel about maybe that example in particular that sets that apart from I know obviously the emotionality comes into it the memorability of that comes into it. What are some things that you look at that determine what is a good founding story versus a more mediocre one?
Paul Smith
Yeah, so a couple of things with with that one that you didn't already mentioned. So you already mentioned a couple of them so that, you know, the the emotional moment where he realizes, you know, the emotional connection secondly, or maybe First, the fact that he's solving a problem. Like he had a problem. He those cereal bars are just disgusting, right? And he didn't like that and you probably don't either, and so the original ones 30 years ago, so he wanted to invent the new one. But a couple other things about that one, I think that are worth mentioning. One is that notice the surprises. Ending, right? So So you said we all know that story. But the truth is most people don't know the founding story of the Clif Bar company. They know the founding story of apple or Hewlett Packard, or, you know, Michael Dell in his college dorm room, or Mark Zuckerberg at Harvard, inventing Facebook. So there are few founding stories that people know. Most people have never heard of the founding. They know what the Clif Bar is, but they never heard the founding story. And so most people listening to that story, didn't know that it was about the Clif Bar company until the very end when they said the guy's dad's name was Clifford. And so he named the bar the Syrah bar, the Clif Bar. That was intentional. So like I could have told you. Yeah, well, let me give you an example of the founding story of the Clif Bar company. And then I told you the same story, and it would it would have been a good story, but it's a better story, because there was a surprise ending. And I created that surprise, on purpose by not telling you the name of the company up front, and only telling you at the end, when I explained that it was his dad's Name, right? So there there are things you can do with crafting a story to make them more interesting, more appealing, have more surprise, have more of an emotional engagement. So that's not an accident you craft these stories intentionally following a pattern that is proven to make for successful storytelling.
John Ryan
Please forgive me I did not mean to imply that I knew I didn't know as Cliff Actually, I meant to say I knew we all know Cliff company, the company, our company. Yeah, please forgive me. Because no, I didn't only until you said named after the father that I'm sure everyone's light bulbs are going off. It's got to be Clif Bars, and then we get that payoff at the end. So I love it's you're really becoming a storyteller or just like a screenwriter or novelist and finding out what's the best way to captivate create conflict and challenge which I noticed as part of your process too, and and then getting people invested in the story, and then having that payoff at the end and then get them to walk away with a whole bunch of cool ideas about how they can apply this to that. Life. So the founding story is one of them. What are some other stories that that leaders should be telling as part of their day to day?
Paul Smith
Yeah, so. So that's a great question. Now that I've told you, you know, I hear I found these dozens and dozens of types of stories that people told. So I finally made some time to sit down and think about what are the most important ones, like, what are the top 10? Right, there's surely some of them are more important than others. And so my last book is actually the 10 stories of great leaders tell where I finally sat down to do that. Okay. So I'll just I'll spoil the whole thing for you and tell you, I'll give you the Table of Contents right now. Right. So here are the most important 10 stories, I think every leader ought to be able to tell. Alright, and the first four go together, because they're about setting the direction for the organization. So that's where we came from. So that's that founding story. We just talked about why we can't stay there. So that's a case for change story, where we're going, which is a vision story, and how we're going to get there which is a strategy story. Alright, so you can imagine if a leader can tell those four stories, they're much more likely To get the organization to go, where you want them to go, because you can tell them where you came from, why you can't stay where you're going, and the strategy to get there. Right, so the next four go together as well. But they're more about who we are as an organization. So that's what we believe, sets a corporate value story, who we serve. So that's a customer story, a story about the customer. So everybody in your company can have a personal human understanding of who you're ultimately working for. What we do for our customers, so that's a classical sales story or customer success story, basically a story so that people can understand you know that what you what you do, that's so awesome that people should pay you to do it for them, right. And then number eight is how we're different from our competitors. So I call that a marketing story. Because marketing is generally about differentiating yourself from your competitors. So So if you think about those four, if you can tell those four stories, you can easily explain who your company is, who you serve, what you do for them and how you're different from your competitors, right. So if you're keeping up, that's eight so there's two lessons And those kind of go together as well, but they're more personal to you the leader. So that's why I lead the way I do. So that's a personal leadership philosophy story. And why you should want to work here. So you the person you're talking to, right? So, so that's a recruiting story, you know, and those stories are important because every leaders job is to bring in talented people and get them to stay in the company and follow your leadership, right? That's not just the job of HR or recruiting the recruiting department or something. Right, so. So those are my top 10. Now, there are dozens of others. And you and I could probably argue all day about which ones should you know, be in the top 10. But I think most people will hear that list and think, yeah, I need I need all of those 10 stories and you do.
John Ryan
I think you're right the most as you share that. Thank you so much for sharing that for me and also for the listeners. Because it's so simple, right? So it's it's the company story first. It's the client story that we serve, and then it's about your story and the employees story. And if you have those Obviously, you don't have all the dozens and dozens that exists. But you have a pretty good start. Yeah, that's an incredible start. And I imagined those stories need to be repeated. And that's what is the basis I guess of culture? Would you say?
Paul Smith
Yeah, it is. And I'm glad you mentioned that, because that's one of the criteria I used to pick these 10 stories is that they can be repeated and or need to be repeated a lot. And for a long period of time, like, there's some stories that you'll tell that you'll maybe only need to tell once or twice because the problem you were trying to solve, got solved. And you never need to tell that story again. But if you think about these stories, they're stories you you'll be telling for years, if not decades, like your company founding story. Well, that should never change, right? If your company only gets founded once so you could tell that story for decades and never change your vision story. Well, your vision is going to change but only every like five or six or eight years, right? The vision story shouldn't change every month. So you can invest time in getting that story right? Because you can tell it for you before it ever needs to change. So that was part of my criteria in selecting those and specifically to your question. Yes. culture, and values in an organization are really defined by the stories people tell about other people in the company. So the people who, you know, embody the right culture and the right values, and we're rewarded for it. And the other people who behaved in a different way and got, you know, punished or fired for it. Right. I mean, those are the stories that that help people decide how they're going to behave because nobody reads the rulebook. Right. But they do listen to the stories that people tell about other people in the office.
John Ryan
Yeah, I think I think that makes sense. And you're right. There's, there's when stories and struggle stories, and they're both have value, I think the application becomes really apparent when you put all those 10 together. And you think about the importance in the DNA of the culture, the values, the beliefs, and the vision stories, etc. One of the challenges I mentioned you probably come across is Do you ever have people saying, I'm just not a good story? Taylor, and I tell stories and people get bored or they look like they're deer in the headlights. What do you say to folks like that? who are struggling on like the delivery aspect perhaps?
Paul Smith
Yeah. Well, so people tell me that all the time. And because that's what I do for a living is teach people how to be better storytellers. And, and, and that's the first barrier they have to overcome is thinking, you know what, I'm just, I'm just not a naturally gifted storyteller. So I guess I never will be. And that's just not true, right? I mean, storytelling is an art, like music or dance or, you know, poetry or something. So, clearly, there are going to be people who are naturally born with a better, you know, talent for that. But just because you're not not a naturally gifted musician, doesn't mean you can't learn to play the guitar. But you'd need to take lessons, right. I mean, you can't just buy a guitar and put it by your bed and hope that by osmosis, you'll learn to play the guitar, right? You'd hire somebody who knew how to play the guitar and have them teach you. So it's the same with storytelling. If you're not great at it, that's fine. You could, but you can learn how somebody read a book, take a class, watch some online videos, you know, learn to take it as a skill, just like any other skill set in business that you need to be successful and go learn it. And you will.
John Ryan
Are there any mistakes that you see that leaders make when crafting a story or delivering a story?
Paul Smith
Yeah, well, lots of them. So some of the more common and interesting ones are happening right up front, though, right when they're about to tell a story. So a couple of them are never apologize or ask permission to tell a story at work. I mean, you've seen that happen all the time, right? You'll be in a meeting and somebody raise their hand and say, Look, I'm sorry to interrupt. But can I can I just tell a quick story? I promise it'll just take a minute. Right now, what does that communicate? Do you think to the rest of the people in the audience about how important they think the story is?
John Ryan
Oh, yeah, it undermines it completely.
Paul Smith
Right? Yeah, clearly They don't think it was as important as what was going to be said anyway, right? Because they're apologizing and asking permission to tell it. Right. So. And if you do think, or if you don't think that your story is as important as what was going to be said, by all means, like, don't tell it right. But if you do think your story's important. Just tell it. No apology, no asking permission, right? leaders don't ask permission to lead. They just lead. never asked permission to tell a leadership or a sales or business or marketing story. You're just doing your job. Just tell it. The other one that I see all the time is don't tell people that you're going to tell them a story. Just tell them the story, right. So there are a lot of people who have a negative visceral reaction to hearing the words. Let me tell you a story. You know, because they think that you're you're going to tell them some long, boring 15 minute irrelevant story or you or you're going to lie to them because you know, some people telling stories means lying if you grew up where I grew up, you know, so there are a lot of connotations to you. Using the word story that just doesn't sit well with a lot of people at work. Now, the analogy I use those because they like the story, if you tell them a great story, they'll they'll appreciate it. But they won't, if you tell them you're going to tell them a story. So the best analogy I've thought of is it's kind of like a business person at work. Telling them you're going to tell them a story is kind of like telling a five year old kid, it's time to stop playing outside and come inside and take a bath. Like in both cases, they don't want to, once they're in it, they love it and don't want to get out. Right. Once the kids in the bath, he's having fun and playing. He doesn't want to get out and same with a story for a grown up. Once they're in the story. They're enjoying it. They're listening to it. They're learning and they're engaged. They don't want to get out but if you tell them ahead of time, that's what's going to happen. They're usually not interested. So don't spoil it by telling them it's time to come in and take a bath.
John Ryan
Well, I know you also have a book on obviously, parents and telling stories as well and transitions are a huge thing if you have children with a seven year old And they love both activities, but it's getting from one to the other. So that transition into the story, don't apologize. Don't ask permission. jump right in. And don't don't telegraph. Hey, I'm going to tell you a story. I'm hearing what is what is a good way? Like, how would you transition into a story? What are some of your favorites?
Paul Smith
Yeah. So what use what I call as a hook, right? So it's basically just a sentence or two, that lets your audience know that if you listen to me for the next two or three minutes, I'm going to tell you something that's important to you, not to me, but to you. So for example, what that might sound like is, maybe you and I are meeting and and you're telling me about a problem you're having, and I want to give you some advice in the form of a story. I might say, Wow, that is a tough problem. Let me tell you what I did five years ago when I had your job and I ran into that problem. And then I start telling the story, like just that one or two sentences. Like if somebody said that to you That's a tough problem. Let me tell you what I did when I ran into that problem. Do you want to hear what they got to say next? Of course? Of course you do, right? Like you don't know if they handled it well, or if they completely failed, because they haven't told you the story yet. But it doesn't matter. Because you're going to learn either way, something that you should go do or something you should avoid doing. Right? So that is a hook. So you're not asking permission. You're not apologizing for telling the story. You're not telling them you're going to tell a story. You just say something like that. Okay. Let me tell you what I did when I ran into that problem, or, you know, if they're asking you for an example of something you might say, Yeah, well, let me just give you an example. And then you tell the story instead of Yeah, well, let me tell you a story about this. That's not the way
John Ryan
I love that you just break it down on the fly here the Hey, Wow, that sounds like a really big problems. So you're acknowledging the issue they're dealing with and then you're establishing credibility. I've already been through this. And let me just tell you last impression. Let me just tell you about this. And now they're like, Yeah, because you've established that you have credibility, you've been through it, you clearly have, because I can learn from you either from a success perspective, or a failure perspective. I'm already hooked. I'm already hooked on what you what you want to say. With advice, you said, giving advice to a story. And I think it's a great way to do that for many reasons. Giving advices like, here's what you should do. A story's a different tact, a story is more open, like how do you differentiate yourself and or do people intuitively get that distinction there?
Paul Smith
No, well, some people do like you just did. But that's a conscious part of what I teach people with storytelling is, use a story not to tell people what to do, but to let them realize what they should do should do. So a story is an opportunity for them to learn the lesson themselves, instead of you hitting them over the head with the lesson. So, in storytelling, I tell people, you there, there are eight questions your story needs to answer. And we can go through them if you'd like. But near the end of that list is what's the lesson in the story? And what I tell people is if you tell the story, well, you the storyteller don't have to answer question number seven, which is, what's the lesson in the story, because your audience will have answered it for themselves. And that's a far better way for them to learn than you telling them. Now, if they learn the wrong lesson, then you've got to redirect them a little bit and tell them what the real lesson is. But nine times out of 10, they'll get it and people are far more passionate about pursuing their ideas than they are about pursuing your ideas. Right. And that's part of the beauty of storytelling is it lets people realize and learn their own lessons from the story so that it's their idea now, not your idea, and that way, there'll be more motivated to act on it and that's what you want you want. A story helps you turn your idea into their idea.
John Ryan
I love That I think you're going to get a lot less resistance than when it's their idea rather than you beating them over the head, like you said, making that happen. Timing as well. So that the Clif Bar story and that twist at the end, that was only a couple of minutes. Is there a? I mean, it seems like a 20 minute story is going to be on the extreme end, and you're probably going to be really captivating to make that happen. Is there an ideal amount of time that that you want people to get in and get out?
Paul Smith
Yeah, so for leadership stories, a typical leadership story is around three or four minutes long, okay, it's not 10 or 15, you know, 20 minutes. So I've seen I've seen them as short as 20 or 30 seconds. I've seen them as long as six or seven minutes, but three or four minutes is kind of the sweet spot. Sales and Marketing stories tend to be a lot shorter. You know, I mean, you can watch a television commercial in 15 or 30 seconds right. Now, not all of them are real stories, but many of them are. But even sales stories that salespeople would tell over the desk, you know, from a buyer tend to be one or two minutes. Long as opposed to three or four minutes long, and let's see if you can figure out there's a fairly obvious reason why why do you think leadership stories are about twice as long as sales stories?
John Ryan
of prestige? Actually, the leader is in charge, and they think you have to pay attention.
Paul Smith
Exactly. Yeah. Because the leader can get away with it.
Yeah, when you're the salesperson in the buyers office, you ain't the boss, right? Yeah. Yeah. So right. Yes, these tend to be shorter. But in both cases, notice they're pretty short. I mean, it's two or three or four minutes. That's all we're talking about.
John Ryan
Okay, cool. Thanks for the quiz. I appreciate it. It's awesome.
Oh, okay. So do questions come into play at all? Or is it more one way or does it get dynamic in the discussion of stories?
Paul Smith
Well, so the story itself is, is one way once you've started telling a story, it's typically I'm going to talk for the next two minutes and tell you a story. And then you're going to respond and tell me what you learn from the story. Right? Because I'm telling you the story to teach you some kind of a lesson, and I need to check and make sure that you learn the right lesson. So that I don't have to tell you what the lesson is. Because if I, if I'm just going to tell you what the lesson is, I don't need to tell you the story, I should just tell you what to do, right? So there there is questioning before you tell the story. So you need to find out you need to ask enough questions, so you know what story you need to tell. Right? And then after you've told the story, you're asking your need to ask them what did you learn from the story? What do you think you'll go do now? So you're you're asking to see what they learned if they learn the right lesson. But during the two minutes, it's it's your turn to talk. And then by the way, there are questions that you need to ask that you can ask to get your audience to tell you a story, as opposed to to give you short answer questions. And so it's important to learn the right questions to ask to elicit stories from people not just to tell them
John Ryan
what would that look like if I'm unsure a little bit more about eliciting a story from an employee or maybe even a customer? I'm not sure how
Paul Smith
So if you had a customer that you wanted to find out, you know what their biggest problem is right now so that you can help them solve it with, you know, whatever it is that you sell. You could ask them a closed ended question like, what's your biggest problem right now? And they would answer it in just one or two words. They might say, oh, warehousing, warehousing is our biggest problem. Okay, well, can you fix that? I don't know. How do you like you don't know much about the problem. But if you ask the question this way. Tell me about the moment you realized your biggest problem was your biggest problem. Oh, well, that would that would have been last summer called in last minute order a huge order. And we went out to the warehouse and we couldn't find the product that we're after. So we had to schedule a special production. We all have it just in time we expedited the shipment to the customer at a huge upcharge and we got it there just in time. And then we went out to the warehouse and found the product that they were looking for right where it should have been all along. Like, okay, now you know what they mean by a warehousing problem. It's an inventory location problem, right? So asking questions that elicits stories is far better for you. Because you'll learn more, you'll have more insight into the real problem than just saying, oh, warehousing is our biggest problem or inventory is our biggest problem or even inventory management's our biggest problem. Well, what does it really mean? Give me an example of that being a problem, right? So those are the kind of questions you want to ask.
John Ryan
So get them to walk through how also helps them to reconnect to the pain that they're having, and the problem they're facing, which allows you to then have more impetus to actually work with you if you assuming you can, of course solve the problem.
Paul Smith
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I hadn't thought about that. But you you just had them. What was the word you used pain building, you've they've re experienced, essentially, there? Yeah. re experiencing the pain point by talking through it. So yeah, they're a little bit more primed to to want your solution.
John Ryan
Because you're right, because the chunked up but we have a warehousing problem is intellectual. And that's that's the rational mind. It's not the emotional mind versus thinking about the frustration of having to take time out, go to the warehouse and see where it's there. And recognizing there's a bigger problem. And by recapping that moment, you discovered that you have that big problem. Right? I love that. So I just had a curiosity. And this kind of seems a little bit backwards from a sequencing perspective. How did you discover the power of storytelling? What was your I don't know if it's a founding moment for you, but like maybe a turning point for you in terms of how you realize that Wow, there really a better way to communicate rather than telling people what to do is to share stories.
Paul Smith
Yeah, so one of my earliest, well, somewhat was just watching just I mean, I spent 20 to 30 years now in the business world and you and you have leaders that you admire the most and that you want to work for. And I at one point over, you know, 15 years ago, I finally dawned on me that one of the skill sets those leaders had that I admired the most was this ability to tell a compelling story. And, and they hadn't taught me that, like I went to I got an MBA and they didn't teach me how to tell stories. And they didn't teach me that an undergrad, they didn't teach me that a Procter and Gamble and they didn't teach me that at Accenture and I worked there too. And like, so some of it was just that. But there, there was a more singular moment. I read a book back in 2009, called, Made to Stick by some ideas survive, and others die by Chip and Dan Heath, and they talked about what is it that makes some ideas stand the test of time and be successful in other ideas just fade away. And they came up with six criteria, which were that they were simple, unexpected, concrete, credible, emotional stories. So the six criteria in the last one, there was stories that are communicated via a story instead of just, you know, telling people here's exactly what I think and being explicit about your logical thought. And so that and that one resonated with me and so I ended up digging deeper into that one and just became fascinated with Topic even even more,
John Ryan
is there a story that you go to more than others that that's one that you love to share that you're particularly passionate about that you'd like to share with our audience?
Paul Smith
Well, I have lots of them. But
if you wanted a more personal I could tell you the story. My dad told me that got me to quit my corporate job in my mid 40s. And go become an author and speaker for a living, which is a crazy idea when you're too young to retire and have a you know, wife and kids at home to support and, and it's because I developed this passion for storytelling, and my first book had just come out. And, you know, I was trying to decide, do I go do this, you know, crazy thing, or, you know, we're just keep my head down and, you know, for another 10 years until I can retire. And my dad told me that when he was five years old, he knew exactly what he wanted to do for a living. He said, I wanted to be a singer. You know, like Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett, or Sammy Davis, Jr. Right? He was 80 years old at the time. So that was a genre and he Said he knew that for sure. The first day of the first grade, he said, the music went to class and the teacher asked all the students, if any of them had any special talents, like singing or dancing or magic tricks or whatever, and he said, Yeah, yeah. He said, I'm a singer, right? I can sing even though he never sung in front of anybody but his mom in the kitchen, right? So what do you think john? A good teacher would do when a little you know, five year old Bobby Smith says that he's a singer. A good
John Ryan
teacher, I would hope would encourage and support
Paul Smith
Yeah, so she did. She said, Well, Bobby, sing us a song.
John Ryan
So that yeah, that part's here. Yeah.
Paul Smith
Right then so a little five year old Bobby Smith stood up and he belted out his favorite song right there in front of the whole class acapella, right. And he tells me, son, I nailed it. I got all the words right. All the melody right. I was so proud got through the whole song. He said the teacher and the other students stood up and they applauded me. I got a standing ovation, my first time to sing in front of an audience. And he said, unfortunately, That turned out not just to be the first time ever saying in front of an audience, it turned out to be the last time I ever sang in front of an audience. And he said, someday, son, you're gonna wake up, you're gonna be 80 years old like me, and it's gonna be too late to pursue your dream. And as if john, that wasn't enough to do it, and it was, by the way, he closes out this story. This is an email that he's writing me, he closes out this email by saying, I'd love to see you achieve your dream. But that doesn't mean in your lifetime son. That means in mind, and oh my god, just like oh Tick Tock cried the guys at so. Yeah, pressures on now. So literally, john, two days later, I walk into my boss's office and I quit from my 20 year career to pursue this dream and absolutely was the best decision ever made. And I would not have made it. Certainly not that early. Had it not been for my dad story. Wow. Wow, I love it. So you got started right away, and your dad got to see it. He did. And he's unfortunately still alive today. At the age of 86, now wonderful 87 sorry, 87 now, and yeah, so he's gotten to see me, you know, full circle with that, that idea and be successful with it. Yeah. And and can you imagine, I'm still three years shy of being able to hit my retirement age at PNG. So if I had not done that, I'd still be, you know, he still would not get to see it. And you know, who knows if it'll be here three years from now?
John Ryan
Is that the most important email you think you may have ever received? Oh,
Paul Smith
That very well, could be certainly the most impactful difference in my life for sure.
John Ryan
Thank you so much for sharing that story. It's so awesome. And thank you so much again, Paul, for for being here and sharing and I know we have it's an iceberg. We're only scratching the surface here. There's so much more that that I think people would benefit from hearing from you. What's the best way to get in touch with you to stay in touch and stay connected and have a conversation with you?
Paul Smith
Yeah, thanks. So it's probably the best way is my website which is leadwithastory.com. So there's links that all my my books and training courses I do and contact information for me as well.
