Leadership Is A Privilege with Emma Mills-Sheffield

Inside This Episode

• Where Leadership Really Begins
• The Basic Ingredients in Creating High Performing Teams
• How Slowing Down Can Increase Our Productivity
• The Power of Vulnerability
• The Importance of Authentic Leadership
• How to Know if You Have an Underperforming Team
• How to Create Empathy in a Corporate Culture
• Why Leadership is a Privilege, Not a Right
• Holding Space for Yourself and Advocating for Others
• Dealing with Insecurities as a Leader
• Scaling Up Through Leadership
• Why Leaders Don’t Want Clones
• Managing Engagement and Retention Through Change

John Ryan
You're listening to key conversations for leaders. This is episode number 45. Welcome everybody. In today's episode, we'll be exploring how leadership is a privilege with Emma Mills-Sheffield, we'll be talking about the importance of authentic leadership, how to create empathy and corporate culture and the power of vulnerability and much, much more.

John Ryan 0:22
Leadership is about vision. It's about creating a vision and sharing that vision with others in a way that inspires them to walk with you towards its fulfillment. Along the way, leaders encourage, motivate, guide and even challenge people to bring their best each and every day. And it's all done through conversations. That's what this show is about better conversations for better leaders.

John Ryan 0:44
Hey, everybody, and welcome to key conversations for leaders. I'm your host, John Ryan, and today we have a very special guest, Emma Mills-Sheffield. Emma is a consultant coach, speaker and facilitator. She has over 15 years of industry experience. And she's worked with public sector organizations, FTSE 100, and Fortune 500. Companies, charities and startups in January 2020,. Emma was named as one of the top 100 female entrepreneurs in the UK as part of the Small Business campaign f:entrepreneurs. Welcome to the show, Emma. Thanks for being here.

Emma Mills-Sheffield 1:15
Thanks for inviting me, john, lovely to see you today.

John Ryan 1:18
Excellent. You know, your company, obviously is called mind setup. Can you share with us a little bit about you know, what that phrase means to you? And where that really came from?

Emma Mills-Sheffield 1:29
Yeah, absolutely. And there's only like two people who've ever gone. Oh, yeah, I get it. So I think you know, I'm not sure if I've hit the right note there. But for me working with business and leadership, and business leaders, employees, in coaching, it's all about mindset. We have to start with mindset. We can't do anything practical until we really understand how we work, what makes us tick, and how we kind of integrate with other people. And the setup part is I'm a massive productivity, fan, productivity efficiency and that sort of thing and driving that through business. So for me, it made perfect sense. But yeah, I'm yet to find everyone else go. Oh, yeah. Cool. I get it.

John Ryan 2:09
Excellent. So to make sure I understand. So the setup is you got to begin by setting up your mind first and foremost. Yeah, absolutely. Thinking of like a systems and projects and environments and all the pieces of the puzzle in that regard to Okay, fantastic. You know, I know you also do a lot of work with, obviously, you said productivity and high performing teams, how do you define a high performing team?

Emma Mills-Sheffield 2:33
It's always a good question. And it's, you often get the kind of sports analogies, you know, you hear from fantastic coaches, and when they've really got it working, it sounds really straightforward. And ultimately, it shouldn't be difficult, it should be really simple thing to get, right. But it's often just about finding out what really makes everybody tick and what their personal drivers are, what did they see as success for themselves outside of the game, as it were, and the game is business as well, the game is employment, the game is sport. So it's knowing what really makes them tick on a personal level, as well. And thinking about what their purpose is and what their involvement is, and then how they see the collective success being. And so by understanding that you can really play to each other's strengths, you can support on the development areas and help with the weaknesses, but also know where you're brilliant, you know, there's things that you do brilliantly that I can't do, and things that I do brilliantly that you might say that I can't do that. And so in a team dynamic, you really start to work together better. And then ultimately, you're better than greater than the sum of the parts.

John Ryan 3:45
I can see that emphasis on as you're going through that discussion is soaring with their strengths, knowing what your strengths are, it's an individualistic, but it's also really team focused, what are some of the skills that leaders need, in order to pull out the best from each player and put them together in the right combination?

Emma Mills-Sheffield 4:04
It's definitely a really good level of understanding around empathy, around kind of humility, and knowing I think that we're not all machines. And that's something that I see a lot with, especially productivity work. It's kind of the do more with less culture, which is yes, we've had redundancies and it's just tough Get on with it. And that's so divisive in an organization. A good leader understands where people thrive, and you know, where they need to be lifted up and helped. And in doing so, I think there's like a, there's a quiet support, like an undercurrent that really helps boy everybody up. So good leader knows that and a good leader leads by example. They are humble, and they're vulnerable. And they can also say, you know, this is I'm struggling with this. I can't do this. And by doing so, other people think, oh, okay, you're human too. You know, we put our pants on For the time, so we all do that. And actually, once you kind of break it down, say we're all just human beings, and we're all equal. How do we start to work together better? Because sometimes it's a bit of unpicking needed. But then actually, it's, it's letting people thrive and giving them the space to be brilliant.

John Ryan 5:20
So the vulnerability that you talked about, how difficult is it for some people to open up and say, you know, what, I don't know about this? Or is that a skill that you think everyone can learn, or there's some people that are just not willing to go there.

Emma Mills-Sheffield 5:35
It's like peeling off layers of an onion. And it's really hard to do without thinking it turns into therapy. Sometimes, I think some people are much more open to it. And I think it's a it's a gently, gently approach. No one should really I think, in a business environment, kind of wear their heart on their sleeve straight away, you're still trying to understand where you fit or where everyone else fits. And you might not play politics, other people might play politics.

Emma Mills-Sheffield 6:03
And so actually, they're trying to understand the power game going on. And so by going in to open, you might be, you know, subject to some sort of difficult behaviors you don't want to deal with, by being too closed, suddenly, you come across cold, you can be quite steely. It feels like you can't be you know, you're better than everyone else. And you get this real us and then attitude. If somebody just says, actually, I'm really struggling with this, you know, or we're all working from home at the moment, actually, you know, I've got a sick parent, or I've also been homeschooling, you know, three kids behind the scenes or something. You realize, oh, okay, it's not just me, it's you too. And so we can all start to just break down those barriers. So I think it's Yeah, it's not easy. Some people it comes to more easily, it can be learned. But it has to come from a place of really kind of, has to be very hard LED, it's not something that you can, you can fake and, and

John Ryan 7:09
as you're talking about that, and really thinking about the variables about being vulnerable, but also being strategic, and knowing that not everyone is going to be as vulnerable as you are. And they can take advantage of that. Does that go into the mind setup as well? And really thinking about the persona, or who you want to represent in the organization?

Emma Mills-Sheffield 7:30
Yeah, I always think I mean, being authentic is absolutely the best, the best thing, it's the least tiring as well. We only have to be one version of ourselves. And it's just easier. And you know, different people really play off other people. Well, some you just think, okay, we're never going to be friends. But that's okay. We can be you know, civil, we can work well together and understand each other's strengths and weaknesses. But in terms of the persona, I think it's just being really open and listening to other people, listening to what they're doing, what they're facing, you know, what's working, what's not working, and listening without judgment. And not not having to play that game. You often see in large organizations, people going in with the, with the facade, and then coming unstuck, because it's, it's too tiring, you know, and they're the ones that exhibit those really poor behaviors behind the scenes, when they're tired, or they're stressed and the guard is down. They're the ones that lash out, because ultimately, you just you It's tiring trying to be to people.

John Ryan 8:36
So part of that mindset up is getting clear on your values, like you talked about what are your drivers inside and find that right level, so being authentic, but also finding the right level of revealing that on his authenticity, to not be taken advantage of, but also not to burn out on the other side by trying to put up some fake persona of who you might be?

Emma Mills-Sheffield 8:58
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Also, people buy people. And so if you're going to selling capacity, you know, you have to be you. Even in an organization, we are always selling ourselves, you know, we are our own brand and everything. So you have to you have to be authentic. It's it's I just I struggle when you meet people, and they kind of like, well, this is what I'm like at work. And this is what I'm like at home. Anything there should be some a little bit of finessing for the situation, but equally, don't have to be two different people really. And if you are you may be considered, you know what you're doing for a living?

John Ryan 9:39
I like that. That's hilarious. Do you find in working with high performing teams, if you ever come across teams that you know, maybe they think they're high performing, but they're really underperforming? Or do people ever really identify as being underperforming teams, or do they just think that we're just normal we're like everyone else

Emma Mills-Sheffield 9:59
on The above don't. There's, there's, there are elements, especially if somebody new comes in. So you might have a new chief executive come in. And they'll look around and just look under the bonnet and say, yeah, I'm not sure. I think we have some issues. And everyone's saying, No, it's fine. You know, I know what I'm doing. It's okay. And john down the corridor? Well, I don't know what he does. I think he does accounts, or anything, but how do you not know, you know, if you should all know what's happening, you should all be able to work well together and know what the collective goal is. So looking at team dysfunction, I was find fascinating.

Emma Mills-Sheffield 10:36
Typically, it comes down to a lot of lack of trust, because of insecurity. Because you don't have a common goal, you're not able to hold each other accountable. And it's kind of those, you know, the five characteristics of a team dysfunction, really. But when you look at it laid out, it's great. And doing some analysis and asking a few questions and getting a survey back and finding that people are, you know, answering in a certain way, and there's no, everything's fine, obviously, fine. You just think it's not fine, is it? Because you shouldn't have to be that brash about it. So when you start to really uncover it, you realize that there's, there's lots going on underneath that they they don't realize, and it's often about self preservation and not wanting to there's a fear of failure, and all of that, that sort of side of things.

John Ryan 11:27
It seems like it might be common when doing like internal surveys and assessments and reviews, that you're going to get people who are going to say, yeah, everything's fine, and kind of, you know, make everything okay. But because they're afraid they're afraid of being vulnerable and expressing real issues. How do how does one, as a leader, kind of Pierce that veil, to get in create that space of honest feedback,

Emma Mills-Sheffield 11:56
it's, it definitely takes a time to build, especially if you've come into a very dysfunctional team. What I like to do working with clients is really just kind of dispel some of the hierarchical issues. And everybody has a different set of challenges. And sometimes it's around, really breaking down those kind of barriers and having that time with each other. Even pairing off and saying, right, you know, we don't really know each other, we don't work together that often. But I want you to tell me something that you're challenging your role that you want me to, you know, listen to. And it's up to me to listen empathetically.

Emma Mills-Sheffield 12:32
And that's also a good exercise for me. But now, I'm going to start sharing with everyone else, the challenge that you told me. And so it all gets shared around, and then you suddenly get these aha moments where people realize, Oh, I didn't realize that was a challenge. And when you do it from top to bottom, within, within reason, within a kind of management structure, you realize that, you know, your challenges are so different to someone else's. And that person that you think is up in that kind of in a glassy corner office is really showing vulnerability by saying actually, you know, say, you know, the financial markets were really uncertain. We don't know what the future has, it has in store and you realize, you know, wow, okay, everyone's got a different battle. And so that starts to unpick some of that facade starts to break down the barriers and starts to rebuild those relationships, when you realize you were working in the same place, and you should all have a common goal, and working towards the same strategy.

John Ryan 13:34
Like that. They give her for sharing that. You mentioned the hierarchy and kind of breaking down those roles. Some people, you know, in their careers, you know, why do you think some people actually become managers, but never really take on that role as a leader? Because I'm sure you both agree that leaders can occur in any role, regardless of position in the company. Yeah, why is there that limitation? Sometimes?

Emma Mills-Sheffield 13:57
I think you've got a lot of leadership is a set of characteristics. You know, it's not a right. And I always think the difference is that that leadership is not a right. It's an absolute privilege. And you can lead at any stage, and it's how people demonstrate those behaviors. It's up to a good organization to understand how to find those people and help them really thrive. Otherwise, you lose them. managers, often happen. Managers are often appointed because they've just been there long enough. And so you kind of go through the ranks, and it doesn't mean you're a people person. I always think you should have, you know, room in the career structure to have technical managers and you know, people managers, and it's okay, they're different people, because if somebody is say they've got real deep technical, it expertise. Let them be brilliant at that. Don't try and force them into a into a space. They're not comfortable in it. Because there's personal development for everybody, but it doesn't mean it's the right answer.

Emma Mills-Sheffield 15:04
And so have your have people who understand and work with people best do that, because ultimately, you're doing a disservice to employees and your leaders, leaders, managers, if you kind of force a structure and leadership is a privilege, you know, and so you can't, you can have managers who just aren't supported, they're not trained well, they are nervous, they kind of some behaviors can play out, some are brilliant, don't get me wrong. In this demo, I'm focusing on the where it doesn't work. And they feel as there's an element of while I'm in charge now. So I'm going to go around with a puffed up chest and tell everyone what they need to do. And it takes a long time to settle in, because you can just see how that behaviors play out, especially if someone's promoted from within a team, as well. And those those relationships change, they're maybe not going out for, for beers after work like they used to, and they're not sharing the same jokes they used to, because I think you all know, now my manager to kind of have an, you know, this administration management leadership level, where a poor manager will always default back down to the kind of administrator level, very operational, very detail driven into all the detail into everyone else's business, and not thinking strategically like a leader. So everyone always defaults back down to their comfort zone. So I think, yeah, not all managers become leaders, and leaders should allow other people to manage well.

John Ryan 16:36
Brilliant, I love that idea. Also breaking out the technical manager versus the people manager, because that's the classic conundrum, you're good at the tactical, not so the people, you get promoted. And then you're in a situation where it's not playing to your strengths. So create that organizational opportunity for people to really thrive in their own own genius and that level. So assuming that someone is at the right level, right position, and they have the resources and the team to be successful in a project or division, what are some of the factors that really hold them back from from being impactful, effective, and in kind of creating that common vision?

Emma Mills-Sheffield 17:16
I think, the confidence in self confidence in knowing, you know, I can do this, and maybe I want to step up, you want to always be pushing the boundaries of the comfort zone. And always going to that slightly bigger meeting, and holding a bit more space. And if you think you know, I'm afraid to say something, take a deep breath, consider what you want to say, and say it just do it. And especially if you think about some of the minority communities, and you've got women in the workplace where maybe it's typically male dominated environment, you have other behavioral issues, to kind of manage when you've got these different cultures coming together, where typically a woman might say, Okay, I'm just going to sit at the end of the table sit in the corner.

Emma Mills-Sheffield 18:05
Now, you're a leader, you sit in the middle, and you take your space, and you sit up to that table, and you say what you need to say. And equally as a good ally, you support others when you know, they're not being given the time and space to talk. If so, I think it's definitely about having that confidence in yourself and your abilities, and say, Look, I'm here, I'm as valid as everybody else. And so I'm going to say my part. So I think there's definitely that part. And also, being an advocate for your team, and an advocate for others, your peers, as well. And so you start to really create that buzz around, you know, like John's a brilliant leader, because he's absolutely got the needs of his team and his organization, front of mind. You're not holding it for yourself, you're not holding the Success front of your team, for yourself and presenting it as your own. You should always have people in your team are better than you. You know, that's and you should be okay with that. You shouldn't squash people down and say, you know, I don't want you to get above yourself. Because actually, no, this is my my position and my stature. You need your team to step in for you and say, Hey, I'm taking a vacation, you know, this would be a great meeting for you to go to and give someone the opportunity.

John Ryan 19:26
Any any thoughts or suggestions on for a manager or leader where they're starting to feel a little bit threatened by the people they're developing, like in that exact situation just mentioned.

Emma Mills-Sheffield 19:38
Ideally, you shouldn't feel threatened. Ideally, you you won't have carbon copies. And especially if you check sort of the biases in recruiting and everything. You should have people who are just really good at doing what they do, and it might be similar to what you do. But ultimately, you're going to want to do something else at some point and you should always be moving on, and kind of doing yourself out of a job. But making sure people beneath you are able to thrive, they will also in turn support you, because they shouldn't be trying to step on you. Because they're the babies that you haven't encouraged, you know that that's a negative characteristic. But if you've got a high performing team, everybody should have each other's back. And so there really shouldn't be a threatening feel to it, it should be a relief, it's like, Hey, I found a brilliant new job, or I've got a promotion. But it's okay, because so and so's absolutely primed to take this role, and it'd be a great leap for them. And you know, it's seamless that way.

John Ryan 20:42
So it goes back into the the mindset and the confidence and being an advocate for yourself, as well, as you said, to advocate for these individuals and the team at large. What are the recommendations do you have for leaders who want to scale up?

Emma Mills-Sheffield 20:57
scaling up is always a fantastic situation, you've got a lot of the, you've got the sort of the process side, you've got the, you know, systems and that kind of implementation piece that needs to support future growth. But from a people perspective, it's, it's a fantastic chance to say, Well, what management structure to look like, you know, I need to start hiring. I can start from scratch, or build on what I have. But be really clear on your culture, your values, your strategy, what you need, if you look at, you know what I'm not good at. So there's no point having people, lots of people like me, let's not have a hiring bias. Let's think about Okay, if I'm really terrible at technical detail. I really need someone who's brilliant at that.

Emma Mills-Sheffield 21:47
And so you start to create that wonderful kind of jigsaw puzzle. If people just recruited people for a board, a board of trustees, and we were really, really careful about how we did it. And we just said, right, we need people who are fantastically passionate, and experts in what they do. And we've got some key areas we know we want, as I'm looking at going, Wow, you know, these are great people. And that means that some of the parts, you know, piece that we discussed earlier kind of plays out, because we're greater than that. Because I can't touch technology, haven't a clue, that's fine. But you've got some brilliant who can. And someone brilliant is something else. So I always think hire the best people who are the most fantastic at what you need. And that's really in their skill set. And then it'll all play out nicely.

John Ryan 22:43
Is that difficult for people? I mean, imagine, there's probably a tendency or bias to hire people who have the similar skill set and mindset and value system that you do. But it's really the diversity that you're that creates strength. If everyone thinks the same way, then, you know, we're a little bit redundant in that sense. So on that on that board situation, it sounds like you were very intentional in seeking out the complementary skills and core competencies that you really need to.

Emma Mills-Sheffield 23:10
Yeah, I mean, going back to basics on a skills audit, and a skills matrix and thinking, Okay, this is our strategic plan. What do we need to get there? So there's like a roadmap. And then also knowing we don't want you know, you don't want groupthink, you want to be able to challenge each other. And you want to also be okay with that. And say, we have, you know, really opposing opinions, something brilliant, let's talk about it. You know, I hate it. If everyone just goes, eh, you know, you know, you haven't got a great organization when everyone's agreeing. It's like, Well, where's the challenge? Why we were thinking the same thing. But also it's not conflict. It's healthy, healthy debate and challenge. So groupthink is interesting. I Matthew Syed has written about it in Rebel Ideas and things like that, it's really quite interesting when you start to look at where people have been educated and backgrounds and in what we look like doesn't actually necessarily mean there's a difference in diversity. diversity of thought is hugely is an interesting subject. And I think having those different experiences, you just have to be open minded to it as a leader, and know you're not recruiting close, we don't want people, lots of people just like us, because it might be comfortable. But it really narrows down your your growth.

John Ryan 24:27
Any recommendations for leaders who were going through restructuring process bringing in, you know, additional team members and in situations and opportunities that are there to because imagine those types of changes, of course, are going to create fear, and the people that are already there any suggestions on how to kind of satisfy that or to minimize that impact?

Emma Mills-Sheffield 24:49
It's, it's a tough one, especially if you're restructuring you know, downwards and not not growing. But I always think it's a great opportunity to almost shake everything. up, but in a very human way. So understand people nervous, some people are scared. Understand that job security might be at risk. But if you take away the emotional side of it and look at it as an organization is a our organization needs this to progress, this is what we're going to have to do. If you're shrinking or growing either way to say any kind of message. And these are the types of people and types of roles we need. So some people will fit neatly.

Emma Mills-Sheffield 25:36
Some people may not be needed anymore. But equally, there'll be a load of people in the middle, where you say, actually, what is it you really want to do? And can you do something else here? Because we often pigeonhole employees, say, right, you're great at doing that, and you're working your way up this kind of, you know, pillar, you know, in in the Korean matrix. But if you don't ask them, you don't know that they really want to do something else. And so you might find, they can make a diagonal move into something different, and really start to thrive. So if you explain what the core values are the, and I think values are never negotiable. Especially when it even in diversity of hiring, you have to have common values. But you, you start to look at how people might fit and where their skills fit best. And you might not have two people who might end up leaving, and the ones who say, Actually, I don't want to do anything differently. It's, you know, it's run its course, thank you two years, five years, I'm fine. You know, I'll move on, and you sort of part amicably, whereas others, there will be difficult conversations. And some others, you get to stretch your legs and, you know, grow wings and, and really thrive in an organization because you're exhibiting the characteristics that are needed to grow. So it can also be hugely positive. So I think the messaging is really around how to help people grow and take new opportunities and acknowledge that not everybody really likes change. So you just have to have to help people through it.

John Ryan 27:14
That is true people do not necessarily like to change, even positive changes is stressful, as I'm sure you know, what are some of the more challenging conversations that that leaders really need to get skilled at having with their team?

Emma Mills-Sheffield 27:30
It's normally around. It's normally around disappointment, letdown. performance issues, negative issues. Or it could be very personal, it could be you know, grief, or anything like that. It's knowing I think being really empathetic, listening with empathy, and knowing you can't necessarily fix something. But you have, Get your facts. We can't argue with facts, can't argue with data, it is what it is. Try and take some emotion out of a difficult conversation, you know, present the facts as if this is what we have to deal with. No, played out in your mind first, no, there might be some emotion coming from the other side.

Emma Mills-Sheffield 28:12
And you have to just work through it slowly. Also, have an outlet with somebody else to be able to say that I've got to have these really difficult conversations, you know, I have to have to let five people go. This is really tough, and even play that out first. So you know, you're rehearsed, you're not panicked. And then listen with empathy, and listen to these employees or anyone else's challenges and know that you can't fix it. Don't apply judgment, don't sympathize, but sit there and hold that space and say, Look, you know, I i understand this is a really difficult message for you. You know, what would you like to discuss? So you just have to be, you have to dig deep. It's not easy. But it's, you're in a privileged position as a leader, and you have to be able to give that, but also know you've got an outlet as well. You can chat to someone after and even go for coffee, grab a beer and say, Wow, that really sucked. You human too.

John Ryan 29:15
I like that idea. And in probably having the conversation ahead of time as well. So you can take out some of the energy. And then when you get in it, you can be flat be of service and be supportive to this person with whom you're having a difficult conversation. You know, obviously, key conversations for leaders, we believe that conversations are a key part of creating change both internally or externally. Do you mind sharing them out? You know, what's a significant conversation perhaps that you've had either personally or professionally that's had a big impact on your life.

Emma Mills-Sheffield 29:45
I'm sure there's been many and afterwards I'll be thinking, Oh, I had all these examples. That would have been fantastic. And what about this person and that person, I'll be doing them a disservice. But there was definitely, definitely one in my corporate career where I had pluck up courage to go to my, my boss, ultimately, and say, I don't want to be in this job anymore. I don't want to work here anymore. I want to go into my own business. And I don't know how to do it. And I don't know when to do it. But I think I might have just limited my career. And he literally just closed his book, because we're about to have a regular appraisal and closes book, sat back and just said, brilliant. Tell me all about it. I was like, Oh, thank goodness, and he was so supportive is that how can I help? What can I do to help? So we met not so much to talk about, you know, work, but to talk about what next in business, and that's how our relationship evolved. Which is brilliant. Because, you know, I always felt to someone came to me saying, I want to leave. I say, Okay, how can I help? It's, it's not okay, fine, off you go, you know, it's gone, or how can I keep you it's, it's let's play with all the options and why. And, you know, is it for growth? Is it because multitude of reasons, people should go with your blessing? And I think, yeah, that was a conversation. For me, that meant I had the security and the comfort sort of comfort to know that I was going to be okay, I could go when the time's right. Because I was panicking. I said to my husband, oh, we're gonna have a conversation today. And he's like, Okay, well, we still have a mortgage.

John Ryan 31:30
Wow.

Emma Mills-Sheffield 31:32
So, yeah.

John Ryan 31:34
Well, great courage. And it sounds like that person was very supportive, and exactly the type of role model you'd want to have on the other end of that conversation. So cool. Thank you so much for sharing. And Emma, thanks so much for being here. What's the best way for our listeners and watchers to get in touch with you and find out more about your work?

Emma Mills-Sheffield 31:53
So you can get me on LinkedIn, I always like to have a message in a chat with people debate, leadership and strategic challenges and growth. But also website, www dot mind set up dot code at UK. It's a uk website, but I work everywhere. And now we're all online is even better. So yeah, definitely I you know, have a variety of workshops and things coming up. But, you know, I really love to do one to one work. So any business leaders who want to talk, we could talk all day.

John Ryan 32:27
Fantastic. I'll put all of those links in the show notes as well. And thank you so much again, for being here.

Emma Mills-Sheffield 32:32
Thank you for inviting me, it's been a real pleasure.

John Ryan 32:34
And for all of you listening and watching until next time, develop yourself, empower others and lead by example. Thanks for listening to key conversations for leaders with your host john Ryan. If you enjoyed the show, please let us know. Give us a rating or write a review. And if you'd like to connect with me and other like minded leaders, I invite you to join our Facebook group called Develop, Empower and Lead where I deliver free live training every week. If you go to www.developempowerlead.com, it will redirect you right there. Hope to see you there soon.