Establishing Boundaries and Avoiding Burnout with Faheem Moosa
Faheem is the Founder of Springboarders management consulting. He began his career in the manufacturing industry. After completing his MBA in 2007, he began working as a strategy consultant in Toronto and served a wide range of companies including those in the Fortune 100. In 2009 he struck out on his own and started a consulting practice helping small and mid-sized companies grow their businesses. He has since shifted his focus to helping independent consultants and boutique firms build a sales pipeline and grow their business as a leader of leaders.
Inside This Episode
You're listening to key conversations for leaders. This is episode number 21. Welcome everybody. In today's episode we're gonna be talking about establishing boundaries and avoiding burnout with Fahim Moosa. In this episode, we'll be talking about overcoming the challenges of leading a remote team, the need for over communication. And while we sometimes need to leave the feelings at home, and just go to work, even if you work at home, and much, much more.
John Ryan 0:29
It's the simple things that we do every day that determines our success. It's the routines, the rituals, the little decisions that we make, and the conversations that we have on a daily basis that build on each other to create momentum towards our vision. That's what this show is about better conversations for better leaders.
John Ryan 0:47
Hey, everybody, and welcome to key conversations for leaders. I'm your host John Ryan, and today we have a very special guest Faheem Moosa. Faheem is the founder of spring borders management consulting. He began his career in the manufacturing industry. After completing his MBA in 2007, he began working as a strategy consultant in Toronto, and served a wide range of companies, including those in the fortune 100. In 2009, he struck out on his own and started a consulting practice helping small and mid sized companies grow their businesses. He has since shifted his focus to helping independent consultants and boutique firms, build a sales pipeline and grow their business as a leader of leaders. Welcome to the show for him. Hey, thanks for having me. Thank you for being here. You know, for him, you've been working remotely as a management consultant since 2009. What was it that made you decide to go remote instead of working on site?
Faheem Moosa 1:43
Well, that's a good question. You know, it all happened by accident. My first management consulting gig for my own practice was with a university. And so I had that gig and then I was looking for another gig and When I found that second gig it was for a virtual customer service and sales company, and they've been working virtually. So then their style was working virtually. And that's how I started, you know, consulting remotely, it was funny, because I still remember that it was a new concept for me. And, you know, I was being trained by them as to how to work virtually. And I had to go buy a speakerphone because I didn't have one. Because you know, back in the day, you had to, you know, call the conference line and then get on get on meetings and everything. I mean, there was no, you know, technology like this, like we're on right now. Zoom. So, yeah, that's how I got into it.
John Ryan 2:43
A lot of companies these days are obviously shifting to remote because of the pandemic that we're in right now the global situation that we're facing, and many companies who have never done that and maybe thought that it couldn't work, and you've been doing it for 11 years. Yeah. And now they're starting to do that is what is it that companies need to be thinking about as they go to maybe more hybrid or or even more completely virtual teams
Faheem Moosa 3:11
you know I think what to what I found really works with with remote teams is you know, you need to you need to over communicate what happens when you work remote is that in especially when you when you're used to working with people around you in an office setting is that you know, communication it happens, it's might fall it's it's much easier, but when you get to a remote setting, what happens is you get to you obviously don't have that face to face connection. When I say face to face, it's like you know, it's it's a human to human connection because you're so far away even if you're using video. So what happens is that you know, you tend to miss the nuances with in terms of communication and sometimes there are issues related to that. So, you know, when companies are right, when they want to go remote, I feel that they need to sort of be mindful of the fact that you know, communication can get challenging and you know, that you need to over communicate a lot to your team. So that's the first thing. That's the that's the big, that's the big idea and everything, you know, the technology and all that stuff flows from that. So the big piece is communication.
John Ryan 4:28
So, really over communicating and what happens when they're not over communicating, what have you seen or experienced?
Faheem Moosa 4:36
When things can go, you know, things can be taken the wrong way? Typically, when you send out emails, for example, the tone is missing from emails, right. There's written communication can be very clear, yes, but there's, but tone is missing. So sometimes people may take it badly, or they might be they might have some kind of, they might, you know, think that The intent of the email is something else. So that is, you know, that happens when you don't you don't communicate that's happened that happens when typically in a remote setting, even if you don't, and typically when you're using a system, like Basecamp, or Slack, for example, everything is like written in chat and all that. So that can go awry sometimes if you're if you're not careful.
John Ryan 5:24
So the tone gets missing and is missing, and therefore, there's miscommunication that can happen in that regard. Is there such a thing as over over communicating? Can you do it to me?
Faheem Moosa 5:36
No, I think you can have I don't think you can do too much. I mean, that's my personal experience. And when I say over community, communicating I'm not saying that you know, keep annoying people with more and more emails. I'm just saying that you know, try and, you know, try and be as clear as possible or if you feel that, you know, if you reread your email for example, and you, you feel that you could have Communicating data in a better way, then, you know, send a voicemail, for example, I'll give you an example. Back in the day, I had a client that, you know, though, there were a couple of deliverables that I that I had to, you know, provide. And, you know, the client and I had, you know, every, every person has his or her own preference in terms of communicating what to what tools, some people like email, some people, you know, just don't like to talk and some people like talking on the phone. And, you know, this particular client didn't like talking on the phone, but he likes leaving voicemails. Okay, so he would, he had a habit of working late at night and, you know, leaving voicemails, and because of that, you know, there were a couple of things that you know, just to make a long story short, there was there was some a bit of miscommunication over there. And, you know, so a couple of deliverables. Were Lost in the in the maze or in some of those voicemails back and forth. So this was this was getting a little tedious for me. So, you know, in one of those voicemails I said that look, I we need to talk right and we need to there are these couple of points we've gone back and forth you know many times but you know this is something that may lead to more confusion so let's just get on the phone let's put it on the calendar. And and let's talk so that's that's an example of over communicating like saying something when you really want to say it right and not not holding back because you feel you anticipate that this might become a larger issue.
John Ryan 7:44
So I'm hearing a couple things. One, that over communication really is just being vigilant about communication, that you can certainly under communicate and you can have unnecessary details and communication to but finding that sweet spot and being intentional about what is the The best form of communication for this is this text is this email. Is this a phone call video or even in some cases a voicemail to make that happen? So if my preference is phone and the other person's preferences, text or voicemail and that and that one situation, do I have to be flexible and communicating the way that they want to communicate? Or do they have to be flexible and communicate in the way that I want to communicate? How do you navigate those types?
Faheem Moosa 8:27
So it depends on you know, for me, I'll tell you because I'm a consultant, and I just mirror the client. Right? If, if, like right now, just before getting on the, on the call with you, I was texting a client, and that particular client likes the text. Okay? And that's how they feel it's important. I mirror the client, so I stopped with that. But if I feel that there's something that I need to communicate and I can't get it through via text, now I my my preference of communication While working remotely is through video, I use a bunch of different video tools which we can get into later on. But if I have to say something, specifically, if I have to show something, then I get on video, I record my screen, I do a screen share, and I send that information because I feel that, you know, with all the tools that we have, especially with the kind of consulting I do, like I helped consultants to grow their pipeline. So there are tools, very different types of software that we use, sometimes after take my clients through that, and and, you know, make to make sure that they're using the features properly. So, if I feel that they need more than just, you know, a simple text, I would, I would just hop on video and I would text them saying that, hey, I've sent you an email, go check it out. So But to answer your question, I mean, it totally depends, you know, on what the relationship is with the individual. Now, if you If it's a coworker, I am comfortable I'm so comfortable with remote and communication right now that you know, I can even mirror a co worker, I don't have to, you know, just because it's a, I'm a colleague, I don't expect the other person to I don't expect the other person to sort of follow my style. If the coworker his or her colleague is comfortable with, with text or even even the phone, I would just remember that. I don't mind I mean, as long as because because the larger picture here is that I don't want any miscommunication and that that which we've discussed can so easily happen.
John Ryan 10:40
What are some of the mindset changes that you think can help people when they move from, you know, working on site to working remotely?
Faheem Moosa 10:50
I'll answer this from from a consultants perspective, like, if you're, if you're a consultant or if you're working independently and You're working remotely. I would say that, you know, there's a tendency to feel less worthy, just because you're serving clients remotely or just because you're doing something remotely. So if you're a consultant, or if you're even if you're working in a farm, and you're dealing with customers, don't feel less worthy, just because you're serving clients remotely. So, you know, especially when you're a consultant, your value is a function of the result that you get for your clients. Or even when you're working for a company, for example, your value is the result that you get for the company or your or your boss. So that's, that's a mind shift, mindset shift. I mean, nothing is nothing changes when you're working remotely. You're just you're you you're expected to deliver whatever you're expected to deliver. But so but then there is a tendency of thinking that Oh, you know what, it's it's remote. So maybe, you know, it's not as It's not as you know, good as the real thing. I mean it's there's no such thing as real thing. The only thing a real thing if there is such a thing is the result that you get for whatever work you're doing. So that's, that's, that's the first mindset piece if you will. And secondly, when you're working remotely, you know, I found it really useful to have a routine. When you're working in an office for example, there is typically a routine like you know, you have to wake up go to the office commute, there's specific time, etc. So I it's important that that that you know, that structure is a helps in a way. So when you're working remotely, typically if you're working at home, in the times we're in right now, it helps to have a routine it helps to have stock time it helps to have you know, a specific time when you when you have lunch, for example or you schedule some breaks And you know, it is still it is a theoretical concept to me is still at home. But then even if you sort of make it work like 60 to 70% of the time, this you have a routine, it definitely helps you in your work. He has a thing in terms of mindset, but the bigger the biggest thing I'll tell you is that, you know, if you enjoy what you're doing, I really enjoy my work. So if you enjoy what you're doing, you know, remote or in person doesn't matter. So, you know, in terms of a mindset perspective, there's not a lot that you need, you will need to do if you really enjoy the people you're working with or you enjoy that you the results that you're getting for your clients or any constituents. So that's what I would say I mean, make sure that you enjoy what you're doing and make sure that you you are getting to a place where You know, you enjoy you and you enjoy the work.
John Ryan 14:03
So, so three things I'm kind of picking up here. One is, as you said, focus on the results. It doesn't matter unless you're doing massage therapy. There's no more real in person versus being virtually, because you're not touching your coworkers, right? You're working with them. And you can you have all the tools on the planet right now to be productive and communicate, like you said, set that routine. And even if you don't follow 100%, having that structure 60 70% is still better than zero percent, I suppose. And make sure it's something that's passionate something that you're actually finding fulfillment in to keep you engaged, because I'm so glad you brought in the routine, by the way, because when you shift from being an employee mindset to an entrepreneurial mindset, which is I think what a lot of team members are having to do right now, if you're in your own office by yourself, there's no one else around to tell you you need to work. It's all self managed. That if you don't have that routine, You can put you can be working all the time or working very little How do you manage, like productivity and avoiding burnout and because you've been doing this for over a decade now,
Faheem Moosa 15:09
So, you know, I managed by time around my, my clients and my kids. So back in the day when when I started the business, it was 2009 I was single. So, you know, I realized that my energy levels were really up in the mornings. So I got a lot of work done early in the morning. And, you know, after a quick workout, I scheduled all my clients calls early in the morning and like, you know, when you work remotely, and I have a lot of calls, because that's the only way you know, you communicate with me with clients. And you know, if you did have coaching programs or training programs, or consulting, so all my client calls scheduled in the morning, and so that that kind of changed when you know, I got married and I got kids Especially when the kids started growing up, I, you know, I had to drop them by drop them to school, get them ready. And, you know, my wife and I would take turns doing that, but so when it was my turn, you know, I couldn't follow the same schedule, right. So, then what I did was I started working a little later in the morning, and this is the best thing about you know, working remotely and working independently, it gives you discretionary time it gives you freedom. So I can sort of, you know, mold my day depending on based on, you know, my family time and based on what was, you know, important, personally. So,
Faheem Moosa 16:47
In terms of managing my time, it always sort of was done around my clients and my kids now, lately in terms of out. So, here's the thing I mean, so you know, sometimes, most of the time, you know, client work can be challenging. In my business. For me, results are super important, I make sure that my clients get results. So if I have to put in some extra hours and you know, get the work done, then so be it. And sometimes Yes, it's challenging, I'm not going to paint a rosy picture on, you know, what my consulting is and what, you know, the type of work I do, sometimes it is it gets, it gets challenging, because, you know, you don't plan for certain things to happen. And then there's, you know, there are deadlines, you need to like, you know, if you right now I create a lot of content for for clients, and they have to go out at a certain time. So, it does, it does get a bit challenging. So the way I sort of manage burnout is to make sure that I have a team that takes care of, you know, administrative work and certain things that I'm not required to do, right. I think that is that is super important. For example, right now, like I mentioned, I create a lot of content. And there's a lot of ideation involved. There's this creating that content and shooting videos, for example, that stuff only I can do, right? I can't outsource that. So I focus on that. And make sure that any administrative tasks over over and above all of that are outsourced because if I take everything on, then I'll definitely face burnout. So making sure so understanding what is what's required for you to do and what's required, and what you can sort of outsource that is key. So if someone's in the same boat, I would recommend just writing down all the tasks that you are doing currently. And then, you know, circling tasks that you Know the only you can do and then figuring out the rest of the tasks figure out what what you can outsource and what you can build a small team. And it doesn't it doesn't mean that you need you need to spend a lot of money doing that there's there's so many avenues where you can spend a couple hundred dollars and, you know, by productivity, for lack of a better term. Yeah, so that's how I look at it.
John Ryan 19:25
Yeah, I think that that adage of only do the things that you're uniquely qualified to do and keeping that principle in mind, that sounds like that's exactly what you're doing. Because if you're if you're doing if you're doing the videos, and like we talked about him before the show, the post production and the market and all these other things, then you don't have the energy for the ideation, which is really where your value add and your genius comes through. Are there any tips or suggestions that you have for leaders who are struggling managing their team from a distance
Faheem Moosa 19:59
So that would depend on What the struggle is, right? So let's assume that yes, there the teams are not engaged, or they're struggling with. Yeah, with motivation. So I would again, go back to the what we talked about earlier, just over communicate and just, you know, have have a real open conversation with the team about what the what the struggle is, and, you know, try and figure out a path to to addressing that. So, yeah, I mean, communicating over and over communicating over and above what is required, anticipating issues or anticipate, let's say, there's a conflict between a couple of team members, then what would you do offline, that you can now do online, maybe you talk to people, one on one, and try and, you know, resolve or manage conflict, that that happens a lot. I mean, that and that's it. is a bit challenging when you're trying to do that in a in a remote setting. But yeah, I think it all comes down to communication. And at the end of the day, I think that, you know, communication, whether you're working remotely or whether you're working on site communication can resolve a lot of conflict can we communicate can resolve a lot of problems and when I say communication, I mean, you know, leadership, I mean, negotiation, persuasion, listening, empathy, all that comes under under communication, whether you're working on site really working remotely, all those things matter. And they matter much more when you work remotely because of the issues that we talked about the lack of tone and align, you know, increase in distance and so on and so forth. So, I think that is what I would say, interview for for leaders who are struggling with the remoting and the other thing is No. And this the the team that I worked with the first client that I mentioned know the virtual sales and customer service organization, they used to do a really nice, they haven't used to have a nice way of you know, making sure that they maintain the you know, the human touch and the near the connection. And but that was a unique situation where, you know, all the remote board members of their organization they worked nearby, which is in the province of Ontario here, so the different cities so that the team was spread out. And you know, every once in a while, a couple of months, we would all get together and have like a you know, an off site or just just or just get together at a restaurant, or whatever and connect and chat. So that's, that's a nice touch. If you were able to do that, then you must because again, you know, bringing that human connection is so important. But if you're not able to do that, let's say your remote team is spread out across the world. Don't just have, you know, a virtual meeting where you have 20 different people on the zoom call, for example. And just because they're all spread across the world, that doesn't translate a meeting of 20 people in a live setting is different from a meeting with 20 people in the zoom setting, even if it's 20 people and you're meeting, you know, person to person in person. You know, people can talk to one another individually in that group itself, like get together and talk but in a zoom setting or virtual setting, you can't do that. Like there'll be one person talking, and there'll be a few people who are just silent. So if you have a remote team that's spread out, then I would encourage more one on one communication, because then you can sort of, you know, really get to know the person and get to know what the issues are. between, you know if there is any conflict resolution that you have to do, and so on and so forth. So I think the overarching idea is to simply get together with people and, and again, empathize, communicate, listen, learn. And, you know, be honest and open, whether you're whether your team is nearby or whether your team is spread out across the globe.
John Ryan 24:30
It's a really interesting point that you have that when you're in that live setting, so if your remote team under normal circumstances, get together as frequently as you can to have that human interaction, because the team bonding is not when you're sitting in the lecture, or the presentation, the team bonding is before the event on the brakes, while you're grabbing food at the buffet, right? It's those types of things and networking that that doesn't happen on that zoom meeting. Maybe we're exploring things that that we're trying to figure out right now in this world. But is there a way to capture that? in the digital world? The one on one I get, but I feel like as a leader, I'm gonna connect with you, and you connect with me and but the cross team connection, like, Can that be achieved? Or is that really just the thing we're trying to figure out right now?
Faheem Moosa 25:22
Well, I don't know if you can really replace the, you know, in person connection. I'm not sure.
John Ryan 25:29
I'm putting you on the spot to sit to solve the world's problems right now.
Faheem Moosa 25:33
Give me some you know, telepathic technology or you know, something like, you know, better better technology with holograms and you know, augmented reality. Sure you know, the person or something, then maybe you can get closer but, you know, the closest thing we have is video right now. And like you said, it's even if it's empty, Large setting, I mean, it's that in between time that you miss, but with with more one on ones, you can, you know, that's the closest you can get. And still it's not, it's not fully. It's not it's not the same, it's never be the same when we shouldn't try and replace, you don't have the same kind of interaction that we have, you know, in person and try and replicate that it's never going to be the same. But I think that we should just make the best with the technology we have right now. And, you know, again, going back to communication and going back to, you know, really listening and empathizing, that stuff, you know, we have an opportunity to improve that because of the constraints that we have right now. But we and I think there's an opportunity to improve all of those skills and then once we're back, you know, once all of a sudden And we're back to like in person events, we should find that, you know, our general communication skills have improved because of these constraints. So, I would again, go back to the whole communication piece.
John Ryan 27:13
And I think that's a fair point. It's not like you can say that in person communication. It has advantages. It also has disadvantages. Some advantages of email or texting, is you have time to think of your response. The disadvantage of that is you lose tone, like you mentioned. So there's pluses and minuses in both directions. What are some of the best tools that you have found that, you know, minimizes those disadvantages or really just enhance productivity and connection in a remote work setting?
Faheem Moosa 27:43
So I've been using Basecamp for the longest time for 12 years. So Basecamp is a pretty I'm sure you've used it before and a lot of your listeners will be aware of it. I think it's a pretty simple need to it. It's easy to use, and it sort of keeps all the all your messages and everything in one place. So for as a basic sort of, you know, overarching tool for for project communication, team communication, I think the Basecamp is a good tool, there are others as well, but this is what I use. I don't have any experience using too many other similar tools because, you know, Basecamp has always worked for me and, you know, my team. The other thing that I have started using lately is, you know, is video So, awfully, I mean, last few years, we've we've video has become video communication tools have really proliferated, and you have tools like let's say, loom loom is a tool that I came across and there's, you know, other tools like Bom Bom, which does the same thing where you can simply create videos Sweet screencasts even of yourself speaking, and then with a click of a button, just send it off to your team member or even a client. And, you know, communicate that way. So that's something I use a tuple. Right now I use a tool called story Express.
Faheem Moosa 29:18
And it's it has a similar similar functionality. It's where you can, you know, shoot, create screencasts and the like. And I find it so easy. I find it so easy as simple I it's something that I I find indispensable right now, because it also saves a lot of my time. Instead of writing a long email with my response, I can simply shoot a two minute video and send it off to a client and say, hey, look, this is what I meant. And especially like we were talking earlier, if I had to take my client, or even my assistant through some detailed presentation of a tool that I'd like them to use or, you know, a specific way I'd like to use, have them use a tool. It's so easy to to, to send instructions through through such tools. So that's something that I use. I do use slack a little bit as well, for some for some client teams, you know, because they use Slack, I use slack. That's a tool that is pretty handy as well. But, you know, I can't live without Basecamp I can't live without my video tool, story Express. And, of course, you know, email, I try and minimize email. Butwe found that without email, can't live without email.
John Ryan 30:42
I'm with you. So in that regard, so we think about slack story Express and in Basecamp, as well as of course, the email. Are there any conversations like how do you decide when a conversation has to be done in one of those taxpayers Tools vary based tool or if you're going to get on the phone and really have a in person real time conversation.
Faheem Moosa 31:09
Yeah, depends on what the question is or what the purpose of the intent of the, you know, of the of wonder, why are you communicating? So if it's a quick response, your client texts me and I have a very quick one line response, I would just text back. But if I have to, if I feel that, you know, they need proper instructions, or they're doing something which, you know, is not the right way to do something, then I would send a video because then there's no ambiguity as to what I'm saying. And especially you have to show something on the screen. I hardly ever you know, take a video of myself and send it across. No one will nobody would like to look at my face. You know, but the screen is important. If I'm taking them through, let's say, if they've sent me something to review, or if I've, you know, because I do a lot of marketing work, and I do a lot of copy work, I teach them how to, you know, write, good copy, and to, like, create offers that that sell. And if I'm reviewing something that I would share my screen, and I would review them step by step. So it totally depends on what the intent is. I mean, I in ideal world, I, if I could just tell everybody online, I would, I would just do that. But you know, it doesn't work that way. Sometimes you have to give detailed instructions and, you know, have that show them rather than tell them and that case, those cases I would use, use video or even email, if it's, you know, a couple of paragraphs or something which I can just quickly get it done over email that I would do that.
John Ryan 32:53
So it sounds like efficiency and also probably gravity of the content that goes into. Now it of course, we're here at key conversations for leaders and conversations are really everything from a leadership training, development and psychology tool. What do you think just thinking back on your career? Is there any, like one conversation that you feel that you've ever had with a client? Or someone who had with you that that may have shaped your personal or professional career more than others?
Faheem Moosa 33:24
Well, you know, my philosophy in life in terms of learning is incremental learning. I don't I can't recall any major conversation that has been really really life changing or career changing. But I can recall a lot of, you know, small conversations with clients, and also with mentors that sort of, you know, help me tweak and sort of improve incrementally and, and really understand what it is I'm trying to achieve like so for example, with clients and also So, in shaping my own path in my career in my, in my business, as a business person, you know, every few years, you constantly have to reevaluate your, your offering your positioning and your communication. You know, you can't just do it once and then let it go, you know, things change, circumstances change, markets change. industries change. So, you know, every conversation that I have with a client, I listen intently as to, what their fears are, what their frustrations are and what they feel they really need. So, you know, I can't really think of one conversation, but every conversation, I mean, I can think of, I mean, I can, I can't really think of all the conversations, but I know that I've had, you know, hundreds of conversations with clients that have helped me sort of move the needle in small ways.
Faheem Moosa 35:01
I'm sorry, I'm not giving you that that one, you know?
John Ryan 35:05
No, you're doing great,
Faheem Moosa 35:06
That one sort of definitive story. But it's just a lot of small, small conversations that have helped me improve my business. I can I can think of one story, if you will. Back in the day when I was helping my father in my manufacturing business, you know, I was about 20, I think when I started and one day, you know, it was a tough situation we were in, you know, we had, you know, lots of challenges. And one day I didn't just, I didn't feel like going to the manufacturing plant. And, you know, so I was just hanging around at the house. And he asked me, Why don't you would work and I said, I don't feel like it. So he just looked at me, very matter of factly and he told me very kindly leave your feelings at home and please go to work. That's something that I I've, you know, I, that's that's probably one conversation where I always you know, remember, every day is different and sometimes you don't feel like doing the things that you have to do in order to move your business forward. But you know, feelings are have to be kept separately. There's a job to do every single day. So you got to keep those feelings aside. I'm not saying you disregard, you know your feelings, but, you know, keep those feelings aside and do what you have to do every day is show up and do the work. So that's the conversation that I remember. And yeah, I wish I will not forget.
John Ryan 36:34
I love it. Thank you so much for digging deep and pulling that out such a great lesson as well. Thank you. And for him. Thank you so much for spending the time with this. What's the best way for people to you know, get in touch with you and stay connected?
Faheem Moosa 36:47
Thank you so much for having me on the show. I'm really grateful that you took the time and you know, it was great. having this conversation in terms of getting in touch with me. I think the best place would be to add me on on LinkedIn, just search for my name and send me a note saying that you were on the show, and I'd love to connect with you.
John Ryan 37:07
Excellent. Thank you so much for him. Thank you so much to connect with Faheem. You can find him on LinkedIn, as he said, and I'll put a link in the show notes. That's it for now. Thanks so much for listening and until next time, develop yourself, empower others and lead by example.
John Ryan 37:25
Thanks for listening to key conversations for leaders with your host john Ryan. If you enjoyed the show, please let us know. Give us a rating or write a review. If you have a question. You can send me an email to firstname.lastname@example.org. If you haven't already, connect with me on twitter @keyconvo or on LinkedIn under johnRyanLeadership.