Finding Meaning In the Moment with Rebecca Fraser-Thill

John Ryan
You're listening to key conversations for leaders. This is episode number 37. Welcome everybody. In today's episode, we'll be talking about finding meaning in the moment with Rebecca Fraser-Thill, we'll be discussing cultivating a culture of flow and meaning why happiness doesn't fulfill and what does creating positive feedback loops and a simple question to find meaning every day and much, much more.

John Ryan 0:25
Leadership is about vision. It's about creating a vision and sharing that vision with others in a way that inspires them to walk with you towards fulfillment along the way leaders, encourage, motivate, guide and even challenge the people to bring their best each and every day. And it's all done through conversations. That's what the show is about better conversations for better leaders, everyone and welcome to key conversations for leaders. I'm your host, John Ryan, and today we have a very special guest, Rebecca Fraser. Phil. Rebecca is a coach, consultant, speaker and writer. She has a master's in developmental psychology from Cornell and as a faculty member at Bates College. She has been featured in publications such as Bloomberg Businessweek, Business Insider, the Oprah Magazine, and is a senior contributor at Forbes. She works with professionals around the world, helping them find more meaningful and fulfilling work and lives. Welcome to the show, Rebecca,

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 1:19
Thanks for having me.

John Ryan 1:21
It's a pleasure to have you here. You know, I want to start out what is it that compelled you to make living a life that feels worthwhile, the focus of your work?

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 1:32
Yeah, so most recently and recent not being that recent when I was a college student, I was in a liberal arts college. And I felt like I had checked all the boxes of life like I was I had done well through high school, I did well in college, and I was doing everything the way you were supposed to. And yet I was felt like I had no path forward after that. And the 20s felt very confusing to me in so many ways. So that's what like, most recently made me thinking about think about how do I support students and coaching clients and building a life that feels worthwhile. But if we go a little bit further back and deeper, it's really way back in my childhood, my sister had leukemia back when I was a second grader. And that experience made me look at life in a very different way, say, wow, this is short, as a second grader, like we don't get much time. So we better figure out how to make the most whatever this living thing is, and really have a positive impact along the way, because we don't have forever. And I remember thinking that really as a young child. And then so much of my learning and work since then has been about how do you operationalize that? And like, what do you do with that information, that knowledge and actually make something of it while still being able to pay your bills and do everything that's required? In a practical sense.

John Ryan 2:56
There are a lot of concerns like there's the idea that comes to mind for me is like, you know, live each day like it's your last day on earth, which seems very undoable and extreme because people go I'm gonna go skydiving, I'm gonna climb mountains, but then you're not taking care of that responsibility. How does that you know, tenable nature of life and the preciousness of life? How do you how do you operationalize that are of you are still working on that if you have some ideas?

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 3:21
I think it's a life journey to keep working on it. Right? I don't know if there's ever an answer around that. But for me, I, from doing a lot of reading a lot of working with individuals a lot of tweaking in my own life, it comes down to a few different things, which is, you can find the beauty in today, while still planning for the future, right. And still thinking about the practical nature of it all. I'm a mom of two, nine year old and a five year old. And I feel like that life experience has really helped me think about, you've got to do a lot of practical matters as a parent, a lot of nitty gritty, which is not always going to be the things that you're like, Oh, this sounds This feels very fulfilling, right, a lot of the behaviors are not that much fun in the moment. And yet, there's little glimmers of wonder and awe amongst all of this monotony and minutia that you have to do in parenting and in so much of our paid work as well. And I think one of the real tricks to all of this is being able to first recognize those moments, and then figure out how to maximize those moments. So it's like an awareness Oh, this is what builds meaning in my life is when I step back and notice that this is happening. And then how do I craft my life in my work such that I can have more of those moments throughout the day, even amongst all the monotony in the news?

John Ryan 4:48
Does that become even more important when we go into a situation like we're facing right now with the pandemic, in terms of finding those moments and savoring them and really in building them into the day as you say,

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 5:01
Absolutely, I think one thing that I've seen coming out during this pandemic is a lot of people saying about sinking into simple joys, right? Instead of us all grinding forward in some very achievement focused way, which there's nothing wrong with wanting to have goals and wanting to achieve, also have to be experiencing in the here now, that sense of impact and the sense of fulfillment, which usually comes from meaning not from pleasure. And if we can start to reorient towards where do I find meaning in the here now, how do I have an impact, then the whole journey towards some goal is going to feel valuable, rather than that sense that we sometimes or often have, where we reach a goal. And then there's an emptiness follows, you know, that sense, like, oh, I've been working towards this big thing that I've always wanted, whether it be a promotion, or a certain degree, or fill in the blank, and we get it. And then we're kind of like, that was fun. And now what, and I think this pandemic has helped us see that there's something to be said about being right here, like being present, while moving forward at the same time. And I love seeing that shift in a very real way the pandemics awful to be clear, we can't wait for it to be over. And maybe we'll take a little bit more of that simple joy, awareness as a culture forward with us.

John Ryan 6:24
You know, you mentioned the word being right here versus having or doing so the B do have notion that sounds like it's probably very related or tangential to the work that you do. You bring up a really good point about people working for very long periods of time, I have clients who said, I can work for three years on a goal, achieve it at nine and by noon. I'm like, what's next? And they're trying to? What are they trying to fulfill at that point? Is it a distraction? When you focus on the doing? Are we avoiding What's inside? or what have you found to be happening? Or is it not true for everyone?

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 6:58
I think it probably is true for everyone, quite frankly. And there's so many pieces to that. One is from the psychologists point of view, we are very bad at affective forecasting. So you may have heard about that aren't we're not good at predicting how we will feel when certain events are coming up, we always think we're going to feel better about them. Do. We also when we look back on the event, feel better about it, then we did in the moment. So we tend to predict, hey, like getting that promotion is going to make me feel amazing. And then when we look back on it, we actually think it did make us feel amazing. But in the moment, we feel kind of like huh, this I'm still at baseline. And so we go through our whole lives feeling kind of at baseline with nothing really pushing us high. And, or doing so only very temporarily. And that's because our society, it has very much what's called a hedonic focus. We're very pleasure focused. It's even built into our, our whole saying of the pursuit of happiness. Happiness is fine, but happiness we never fill up on. We are never satiated.

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 8:06
There's something called a hedonic treadmill that we keep. Once we get more, we want more. So when you're looking at pleasure, you're always just rumbling forward and feeling like I got that. Now I need something else. And even something else and achieving is that experience. versus if we soak it sink into more of a meaning focus, there's a place for pleasure. We don't want to get rid of pleasure, but really say around what we're doing with our lives. How do we find that deep sense of meaning, which is the best predictor of life satisfaction and meaning comes from giving to others, not just to ourselves, right and feeling deeply connected, a deep sense of belonging, feeling like our we have a narrative we can make sense of our lives, and that we really are able to even transcend ourselves throughout the day and feel like we're connected to something bigger than ourselves.

John Ryan 9:01
So the hedonic treadmill, and I think I heard that from like Jason Silva, the he studies neurology and things like that. But I'm sure it's been around for many, many years, that we keep on running, trying to fill that bucket that the void inside the pleasure receptors inside. Is there a bucket that gets filled for meaning? Is it always a neverending cycle? Or is there a place of satiation in that sense as well?

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 9:25
That's what's so amazing about the meaning approach is that yes, we can be satiated there. So with the eudaimonic, which is more of the meaning based side of things, we can actually get there, we can actually start to feel like oh, their satisfaction, life satisfaction, which we can probably all attest is quite different than those little pleasurable hits. So if we start to reorient, reorient our work, towards How do I have that sense of meaning in what I'm doing? Meaning isn't always a feel good. Sometimes when we're doing really challenging things, difficult things, we're going to derive a lot of meaning from it. But it's not feeling pleasurable in the moment. But then we can look at those moments and say, Wow, yeah, that that's where I was having my biggest impact. That's where I really feel fulfillment, I was creating that sense of well lived life.

John Ryan 10:22
Is there a connection between the difficulty of the task and the meaning we derive from it?

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 10:29
Don't know, actually, if there's a direct connection between it, I know that we meaning and pleasure don't go hand in hand, you can have both at once. And but you can also have very different experiences, don't know about what difficulty of tasks? That's a great question. There may be some literature out there on that.

John Ryan 10:48
Yeah. Just kind of curious about that. I think there's the notion that we can accomplish any What if we have a big enough why which is connecting back to that meaning, which is a reframe around if it's difficult, that means it's worthwhile.

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 11:02
I think there's some danger in that in some ways, because there's this little process, we go, and we engage in called effort justification, where if we work really, really hard at something, we then our minds try to make it look good to us like this and our mind, say, Oh, well, that must have been worth something. But sometimes that it really wasn't worth something, it wasn't meaningful to ourselves, we just put a lot of effort into it. So we have to be careful there. The other piece sets, confound some of this is that flow matters. So you've probably heard of flow where when you feel deeply engaged in your, your work, or whatever you're doing Time passes really quickly. And it's usually when you are deeply challenged. So something is hard and difficult, but it's matching your current skill set. So it's not so easy that you're like, Okay, you walk in the park, but not so far beyond your current skill set that you can't do it. And so that that sweet spot of difficulty does play into flow. And we know flow is a great predictor of having meaning and life satisfaction, the more instances of flow you have, the better, better you do.

John Ryan 12:15
So So flow can be pleasurable in the morning moment, it's not that it's easy, but it's also so hard that it's it's impossible. And and there's meaning that's derived from that, you know, I also want to circle back to the notion you said, because it seems like the bias, you said, I can't remember the exact phrase on the effort bias that we have that we owe, it must have been worthwhile. But the kind of the shape that I'm getting for like the past, and the future is like a year. And maybe you think about it like that, here's the flat of where I am. And the future. I put positive expectations there. And they arrive and they're down here. But then I look back on it. And I can also inflate that experience as well. Is that the so what's the key is not to focus on the pleasure, but the key is really define the meaning. And that will be a different curve, rather than the the U shaped curve is that?

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 13:04
Absolutely. Because meaning can feel fulfilling in the moment, right? Like when we actually get there to whatever the goal is. And the goal may not be this, this tangible, external thing that we're trying to work towards necessarily. It could be, but it would be saying, Okay, I'm going to get this promotion. Why do I want that promotion? Like I often say that to my coaching clients, they'll say to me, I want to work towards a promotion. all well and good. But let's figure out why. And let's go down a few layers of why, to the deeper Why? Because if it's all just about why, like I should, which is often the first layer of why, well, I've been doing this job for this long, so I deserve a promotion. All right, sure. Let's dig into that more. And let's keep going down until we start to see, oh, there's actually some of the sources of meaning that we talk about things like this is about belonging within your company's culture, like you want to be seen and valued for what you're bringing to the table through your title and through your position. All right, let's let's focus on that. Because maybe we can't get you the title change yet.

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 14:12
Maybe that that external piece might not be able to be readily available, and it's somewhat out of your control. But how do we enhance your meaning, where you are like that sense of belonging where you are. And what's so fascinating is, when you start working on the root desires, the external one often comes along with it. Because if you're going to dig into how do I feel more deeply valued where I am? Well, that often means Well, what do you need to do to help them see your value? Right? So it's having conversations with people throughout the organization and talking about finding out how they got to where they are, and talking about how you can develop as a an individual in the organization. It's increasing how many people see And how you speak during meetings, right? It's changing all of that. So you feel more valued. And guess what, when you start to feel that way, other people look at that you and say, person deserves a promotion. So it's such a different way of going about it, such that when that title change happens, it's not it wasn't all hinges on that the experience leading to that title change was already the biggest change of all.

John Ryan 15:26
Well, success breeds success from an inside out perspective. And I love how you're shifting from the doing, which you can always control with the promotion. But if you start from that self esteem perspective, you know, one thing that that it'll, it'll generate that mentality anyways. But one things that interest me of what you said, you're digging down. So imagine goal setting with you is going to be very different than like traditional. Okay, well, here's the goal. And let's back plan. What are the action steps? You're taking a step way back? Well, why do you want that? Well, why do you want that? When you drill down to the Y, I can see you know, belonging, connection, significance, certainty. I mean, is it straight up like Maslow and those types of things? Are those typically the baseline of where we're going to find the the those needs? Are there?

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 16:12
Yes, yeah, you're getting right there that it does come down to the same basic categories. A lot of it's about impact, a lot of it does come back to even what I said my route, understanding that, wow, we don't have a long time. And I want to do something with this, this time that I have. And when it comes all the way back down to that when people are searching for their next step on a career, whether it's a career ladder, or big career change, it's really a an outward manifestation of them trying to figure out how, how do I do the best I can do in the short time I have, even if that wasn't necessarily top of mind when they first came up with the goal?

John Ryan 16:55
Fantastic. Is there anything that leaders, managers, supervisors can do to enhance their employees experience of finding meaning in their work, there is

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 17:06
so much that they can do so very much, starting with being really clear about what the purpose of the organization is, and explicit about that purpose. So building a purpose, mindset and purpose is one element of meaning. So building that purpose mindset is, needs to happen at a formal organizational level, so that the individuals know both their own individual why but also, what's the organizational goal here, but then also, belonging, we mentioned that's one of the key four pillars of meaning. According to Emily Esfahani Smith, who wrote a great book called The power of meaning, and belonging comes up over and over again, in the research, and that culture, organizational culture is really key to belonging, right, we have a lot of instances of exclusion, based on demographic variables, or, which might include age, for instance, but also include race, and you could go right down the whole list, which really harms people's sense of belonging, and thus harms their sense of meaning. So you have to have a truly inclusive culture and think about what does that mean to create that and be clear on the cultural values, the value system of the culture and be explicit and keep checking in on that? And then obviously, leaders can set the stage for having individual conversations with employees around what they want to be bringing to the table? What are their own strengths? And how do we lean into those strengths? What are their interests? What What do they as individuals value? And those one on one conversations are absolutely vital for building meaning in employees lives?

John Ryan 18:52
So it sounds like having a conversation about the organization as a whole, challenging maybe some of the way things were done in terms of diversity, inclusiveness? And also having conversations in all directions around creating meaning. And really, what is your why what is your purpose, creating a sense of belonging, which you said is one of the four needs of creating meaning inside of that? Are there any other conversations that you think that they need to be occurring that are that are not occurring in today's workplace as much as maybe they should?

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 19:23
So excellent question. I think you summed up the really important conversations that need to be having they have an I think a lot of people are really struggling especially to have the individual conversations. I think there's some Band Aid approach, like, okay, let's all talk about the organizational purpose. Okay, done check. And when you actually look at what's happening between supervisors and their direct reports, in terms of conversations, they're lacking, majorly, and I hear that from my coaching clients all the time. coaching clients aren't typically leaving a job because of the organization although certainly culture can play a role. But it's often supervisor conflicts or supervisor not noticing how much they are contributing, not just sitting down and having those review meetings that should be more open ended. They're more just about Okay, you did this, you didn't do this. Here's another goal. And my clients saying, you know what, I'm about more than this, like, why are we not talking about what I can bring to this organization? And what my goals are in the future? And how I see my impact evolving? Why we're not i'm not sure, because leaders would really benefit from tapping into that energy.

John Ryan 20:38
That's what it seems like is that you're missing out on the the resources and attributes that the employees have by not having that conversation is one of the barriers like how to even start that. Do you have any suggestions on how to bridge that you never talked about meaning and purpose before and all of a sudden? It's on the agenda?

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 20:55
Yes, I agree that one of the barriers is meaning and purpose, those terms are way too big. I actually don't use them that often. Because people find them to be overwhelming. Even in my classes of psychology students. I say right off the bat, I'm like, Okay, let's, let's take it down a notch. Number one, we're not talking about the meaning of life, I have no interest in figuring out the meaning of life that leave that to philosophers. That's beautiful to think about. But how we create meaning in our lives, which is really a question of, how do you do what you do every day? And why do you do it. So don't ever bring up the words, you don't have to talk about meaning and purpose, because purpose two feels like there's this big thing out there that I have to somehow find, and I get one purpose, and it must be floating in the ether, which is not true either. So I find those words alone problematic.

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 21:47
And instead, the conversation could be framed around the elements that lead towards meaning and purpose. So things like getting clear on and an individual strengths, interests, personality and values, that's a great starting place. So break that down, reflect back to the individual where you see them being very strong. And then think about how have conversations around how can we encourage you to do more work, that is that type of thing that builds leans into those strengths. That's a great starting point where you're actually going to start building meaning for the person without ever talking about, hey, let's find meaning for you. So because then they're gonna feel more impactful research is pretty clear that when we build on our strengths, we have greater impact.

John Ryan 22:33
Those are really good frames and terminology to use. I think it's actually usable in organizational manner. And it's not a philosophy class, like what is the ultimate meaning of your life? That's not necessarily the manager's role. But what is the meaning you want to create here? It sounds like it'd be engagement, you'd have increased buying commitment, and fulfillment. You know, I know one of the things you also talk about and write about is the precursors of fulfillment. I was wonder if you could actually, because we all want to be fulfilled. Can you tell us like, how do we know for if we're getting the precursors if we have those set up yet?

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 23:07
Oh, it's a great question. And there's a number of them, but some of the key ones we've touched upon, like certainly leaning into meaning instead of pleasure is like very key one, one that we've been tiptoeing around but it's been in there is really create more of a craftsman mindset that things are not, we're not discovers where we have to go find out there something in the world that's elusive, but we rather build for ourselves, we build, meaning we build purpose, we construct that bit by bit by bit. So to do we build fulfilling jobs, they don't come to us wholecloth. If you find out where people actually find work that is meaningful to them, they typically didn't just leap into a role and say, here it is, now I have a meaningful job. That doesn't happen. It's actually through a process that we call job crafting that researchers have studied a lot, where you take your existing role, and iteratively over time, build it to be better and better fit for you on a number of different levels. So become a craftsman keep looking at how you tweak, you don't have to take a big, giant leap in order to make actually really substantive changes. And sometimes the big leaps are very disappointing, because we leap to a new job or to a new city or, and then it's like, oh, this isn't what I thought, well, no, because we're gonna need to build it.

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 24:30
A couple other precursors are to understand, like we were talking about that achievement isn't about that end goal. It's about the process towards the goal and getting the most out of that. And then one of my favorite precursors is a mindset shift. That comes from Viktor Frankl who has an amazing book Man's Search for Meaning. That's literally an annual read for me and I hope many of your listeners have read it. And he was in a concentration camp, he had created a whole thing. theory of meaning before he was in the concentration camp and then further refined it and tested it afterwards. And he, he has this phrase in Man's Search for Meaning where he says that we are questioned by life, daily and hourly. And it's such a reframe on instead of us asking life, like we're always saying, Oh life, what do you have for me? Or, you know, what's this work had for me? What if were like, what is my work asking of me? What is life asking of me right now. And I find that to be extremely powerful, because I can find purpose in every day through that right now. This is what life is asking of me. And maybe it's not always going to be the thing that I would have chosen. But I can see where I am playing a role, a really important role in answering that question.

John Ryan 25:51
That's incredible. I read Man's Search for Meaning, but I don't recall that piece. It's been many years, and you read it yearly. So now I have a new gold standard. Thanks for that inspiration on that one. So and thank you for sharing those as well. You know, along the process, I know you coach people, a lot of times we can't see our own boxes that we put ourselves in, and we stop asking those questions. And we stop examining and looking for meaning, you know, anyone can find meaning in any job. And it's about the act of intention of asking the question just talked about and seeking that out? How do we find do any tips or recommendations for how to find like a mentor to kind of keep you going down the path rather than getting stuck in the same thing from day to day?

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 26:35
Oh, absolutely. I think mentors are so important. And they're also something that you don't have to officially label, I think that's one of the most the biggest misconceptions is like, I need to find the mentor with a capital M, that's going to say, I am your mentor. And then we're all set. I really like and lean in Sheryl Sandberg, Spock where she, she has a whole chapter called Are you my mentor. And she's like, don't ask people, to be your mentor, just start having really good conversations with them. You can build mentorship. And so I'm a big believer that we have different mentors in different phases of our life. Just because you're having great conversations now doesn't mean it's forever. And what I mean by great conversations is find people who aren't going to impose their own way of living upon you who are going to help you see who you really are, reflect back to you what your strengths are, like you said, you can see get out of your own way, start to see yourself for what you have within you, where you light up. And when you don't, you know, the person who can say, Wow, you had a lot of energy around this thing we were talking about, and you sounded really flat around this other thing, which obviously coaches do a lot of that for, for their clients. And so they, you can start to move forward in a way that you feel feel held and validated. And that that person will also point out when you're going off track, when you're, you're making choices that don't match with what you've been espousing all along.

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 28:02
So I think mentors are all around us the possibility of mentors and and I find a lot of my clients are looking for somebody who's going to be an official capacity mentor. And I bet I'll say, what about this person that you talk about talking to all the time, sounds like a mentor role, you've already got that person. So now, keep that going. And part of keeping that going is don't just meet with them once in a while and talk with them. But also, if they give advice or you ask them for advice, go and put it into practice. And furthermore, report back when you do and report back explicitly and concretely about how because that's the reciprocal ality of a relationship. So often mentors, mentees can try to just take take take, and the give is in giving back that information to say, Yeah, what you said to me right here made an impact on me, I went and did x. And here's what I'm experiencing now. That is the best gift you could give someone in a mentoring role. And as someone who has been a college professor for 17 years and worked with a lot of people, I can say how rare it is that you get that type of feedback later on. So it comes but it's not me. People often say, Oh, I didn't tell you five years ago that I did X, Y and Z and you're like, yeah, that that's great. It's a great thing to go back and loop back to that person.

John Ryan 29:28
Wow. I love both those comments, one, lower the bar, but what has to happen before the become a mentor, and then also giving them that affirmation in thanking them and having that appreciation to kind of close the loop and continue and feed back into that relationship, which is what conversations do, they're given take? Yeah. You know, part of what we do at key conversations for leaders is, you know, my emphasis is that conversations are the key. They are the key to growing ourselves and growing other people. you mind sharing, you know, is there any any conversations that stand out for you is having a significant impact. Don't you and where you are now and your your mission? Yeah, I

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 30:04
think one really fascinating thing is when I reflect on key conversations I've had, many of them have been with individuals who a probably don't know, it was so key for me, which speaks to the feedback loop. But one reason they don't is that it's a lot of people who weren't in an official capacity role with me. Some of them were random conversations where an individual is able to play this amazing role of letting me see myself and where I was going. And one example of that is when I was at Cornell, for grad school, it was I had gone straight out of undergrad, it was not a good fit for me. Q back to the person who was checking the boxes, who was feeling lost, who said, Well, then let's go to the Ivy League, because maybe if I check that box, and it all feel great, so there I was, quite miserable.

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 30:50
And, and so I went to a career counselor on campus for graduate students, and told her everything. It was like, I don't know how to finish what to do finish up the doctorate where I'm going to go what, and she actually just reflected back to me, it was one of the first people who just reflected back, here's what I'm hearing. Here's what I'm hearing you say. And then she eventually paused and said, All right, so my job is to retain you at this institution. She's like, that is my job. So I'm supposed to tell you, it's all right, you're gonna be fine, Buck up, get this doctorate done, you're gonna be great. She's like, but what I'm hearing you say is, this isn't the moment for you to be in grad school, you're not ready to know what you want out of this doctorate. And I was like, oh, sigh of relief, validation. Somebody saw what had been churning for months, if not years at that point. And it gave me permission to walk away, which was a huge moment, huge turning point. I never saw her again, it was a one time conversation. And, and I reflect on it frequently, that she did me a real service of going outside of what her official role was, to actually see me as a person.

John Ryan 32:05
I love that that's so powerful. It's the little conversations that sometimes that little pebble can go in a completely different direction. So it's so awesome that she had the courage to do that. Awesome. And thank you for rolling share. I want to also, thank you so much for being here. But also want to find out what is the best way for our listeners or audience to connect with you and find out more about your work to help them find more meaning and purpose and all the other things we talked about?

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 32:29
Absolutely. So my website's probably the best hub for everything, which it's Rebecca f, t. So you don't have to write out the phrase or fail because that's really lengthy. So Rebecca ft.com. And on Forbes, you can also search me out and I have a lot of articles on Forbes careers about meaningful work and, and how we build more purpose into what we're doing every day.

John Ryan 32:53
Excellent. I'll put all of that in the show notes as well as a direct link. Again, Rebecca, thank you so much for being here.

Rebecca Fraser-Thill 32:58
Thank you.

John Ryan 32:59
And thank you for listening. Until next time, develop yourself empower others and lead by example. Thanks for listening to key conversations for leaders with your host john Ryan. If you enjoyed the show, please let us know give us a rating or write a review. And if you'd like to connect with me and other like minded leaders, I invite you to join our Facebook group called Develop, Empower and Lead where I deliver free live training every week. If you go to www.developempowerlead.com, it will redirect you right there. Hope to see you there soon.